Normal Timings & GPX4500

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Normal Timings & GPX4500

Post  AuTitch on Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:21 am

What are people’s experiences using Normal Timings on a 4500 using monos . I’m relatively new to detecting and I’ve been doing a little experimenting with Normal Timings and found that although there appears to be quite a bit more depth compared to Enhanced Timings there are a lot of ground noise type signals. The signal generated while using Normal Timings appear more pronounced compared to the signals while using Enhanced Timings for the same depth target which is beneficial however the constant false signals is a drawback . Are there any settings or tuning so to reduce ground noise signals or work arounds so to enable the use of Normal Timings. Feedback and input welcome.



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Re: Normal Timings & GPX4500

Post  MS on Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:08 pm

Hi Adrian
I can't help you out here as I don't have a 4500 but I would have thought there would be a few standard settings people use that cover most situations and ground types.
Surely you don't have to scroll through hundreds of settings to get the best out of these units.
That's why I like the GP series, easy to use with just a few settings, wonder what others are doing with this model.
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Re: Normal Timings & GPX4500

Post  Jonathan Porter on Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:20 pm

Mark the GPX-4500 is very simple to use once you familiarise yourself with the controls, the main differences to the GP series over and above the digital interface is this, Gain control, Motion control, Stabilizer control, two more Audio filters, more timings selectable from a menu rather than dedicated switches and user programable combinations of the previous options.

The reason Normal timings and Sensitive give more feedback is they are covering the full spectrum of the timings sensitivity except for the removal of information to allow for Ground Balance. This is the maximum depth obtainable by the technology once compensating for ground is taken into consideration. Minelab are known for their ability to compensate for ground (ground balance effectively) in all their detectors, it is something they excel at and us as end users have a tendency to take it for granted until we try something else.

The Normal timings even in mild ground provide feedback from the ground either from hot rocks, or variability in the ground where the ground minerals constantly change or where concentrations of minerals cause the detector to generate a target like response (very frustrating and what AuTitch is referring to), normally a good operator learns to think there way through all the feedback from the ground and "listen" for the good target responses, however this is not infallible as can be attested by the very large successes being achieved Australia wide with operators who have savvied up on the Enhance timings. Before Smooth and now Enhance came along I was very good at differentiating ground noise using a Mono coil but even then there were areas I could not work which were "DD only" territory due to the extreme nature of the ground, more often than not the extreme areas were generally shallow however in places like Victoria this was not always the case hence the popularity of large DD coils.

The benefit of the Enhance timings is this: it allows the operator to work areas that would normally be DD only territory, they also allow the operator to work with near full depth in areas where DD coils struggled, depth is relative so a direct comparison of target strength on a known target is not a good way of confirming the Enhance timings ability. If ground noise is present but the response is louder using Normal timings the loud response could still be lost within the ground signal, whereas near zero ground signal with a positive but slightly fainter response is far more favourable as the ground signal does not dominate the detectors response. If the operator is not constantly bombarded with ground signal audio information they don't suffer from fatigue and can listen for the faint responses within a quiet audio, which has a dual benefit, quieter running machine overall equals less fatigue, quieter running machine with near full depth on most targets equals more obvious signal responses normally hidden within ground noise.

Generally speaking the really hot areas tend to be shallow, so in a lot of cases most of the larger target noises have already been removed because their responses outdid the local ground signal hence only targets that are less than the ground signal remain (one of the reasons why so much small gold is being found), however if an operator is savvy enough deeper ground types can be targeted that have a variable nature and larger gold hidden by the local ground signal due to their distance from the coil can be searched for.

There is a large difference in coil sizes compared to target size when using Enhance, the smaller the coil the greater the performance on small gold (relatively speaking) and vice-verse, the larger the coil the greater the performance on larger deeper targets. Normally a large mono has reasonable performance on the smaller gold relative to the local mineralisation, however with the Enhance timings there is a proportional reduction in sensitivity proportional with the reduction in ground noise so operators need to be flexible in their coil selection in the type of ground/target sizes being sought.

Hope this helps,

Jonathan Porter
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Re: Normal Timings & GPX4500

Post  MS on Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:08 pm

Thanks Jonathon
That gives me a lot better understanding, and the advantages of the GPX 4500s between settings and applications and should help Adrian out with his question.
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Not So Normal

Post  AuTitch on Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:04 pm



JP,



Thanks for lifting the fog and refocusing me as far as timings are concerned. Upshot is that Normal timings offers fools depth most of the time, a quiet machine is much easier to use and hence one can maintain greater concentration for longer.



Adrian






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Re: Normal Timings & GPX4500

Post  Qld Sandy on Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:30 pm

There has been a lot of rubbish spread about the "loss" of depth in Enhance and Smooth timings. When I had my 4000 my mate had a 3500. As we were doing a patch we had many opportunities to compare signals between the 4000 running in Smooth and the 3500 in normal, both of us using a 14" x 9" NF mono coil. Some of the signals we compared could be heard by the 3500 but they were surrounded by ground noise much like the rest of the area and it was touch and go whether to dig them. One particular nugget springs to mind as a good example of the benefits of the different timings on the GPX machines, is a signal that I had that was definitely a nugget. I called my mate over and showed him an area of about 2 square metres and told him there was a nugget in it and to see if he could find it. After running over the spot several times he asked me to show him. I said "No. You find the spot". Eventually he selected the best signal from the spot that was a ground noise. The nugget was about half a metre away and plainly obvious in Smooth timings. The 4000 outdid the 3500 by at least 6 to 1 in the nugget stakes in that spot.

Does that mean that Smooth timings have more depth than normal. It does for that spot certainly.

We have also done areas that we chained using Enhance timings and have found more gold in Normal mode. That tells me that we were being lazy by using a timing that was not the best choice for that spot. The choice is made by the operator and Normal usually will give the best performance until the ground starts to hot up, and then one of the other timings might be a better choice. Personally I like to do the ground several times using different coil sizes and timing options to maximise my chances. Cheers.
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Re: Normal Timings & GPX4500

Post  GoldstalkerGPX on Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:41 pm

Qld Sandy wrote:Personally I like to do the ground several times using different coil sizes and timing options to maximise my chances. Cheers.

Hi All, Q Sandy, I think you have just hit the nail on the head there mate. I have found that many ask what is this and that which is fair enough (one must to gain knowledge), but like you I like to experiment. With the ground changing constantly it is always hard to know what is best for where. What works well in one particular place may not work so well just meters away, after being in excavation for a few years now it is surprising to see what the ground looks like under the surface compared to on the surface, as well as how often the ground types change within a short distance.
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Re: Normal Timings & GPX4500

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:46 pm

Peter...
Mate...the 3500 as is.. would out do the 4000 in sensitive smooth running the same mono coil any time.. have done it time and time again.... please.... there is a big difference in the tests that I have done...

I ran a target out the back in normal timings at 10 inches yesterday... a dozer chip... screamed in on normal but nothing on sensitive smooth..not a mumer... nothing at all...thats in vic anyway.... ur neck of the woods may be different..

take care

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Re: Normal Timings & GPX4500

Post  Qld Sandy on Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:00 pm

raymondj wrote:Peter...
Mate...the 3500 as is.. would out do the 4000 in sensitive smooth running the same mono coil any time.. have done it time and time again.... please.... there is a big difference in the tests that I have done...

I ran a target out the back in normal timings at 10 inches yesterday... a dozer chip... screamed in on normal but nothing on sensitive smooth..not a mumer... nothing at all...thats in vic anyway.... ur neck of the woods may be different..

take care

As I said in my above post, the 4000 in Smooth timings will run rings around a 3500 on some ground types. This area really bothers the 3500 with a mono coil and my mate detests DD's. Using the same model machines, he will stick with a mono where I wimp for a DD and still find gold so he is a decent operator and actually has a better ear for gold than I do if I dared to admit it, which I probably won't. The spot I am talking about is suited to Smooth and Enhance timings. Normal timings on a 3500 is not in the same class. If you feel that you can get better results with a 3500 in Normal than a 4000 in Smooth mode, then all I can say is that the ground is not hot enough for Smooth to be used and Normal on the 4000 should be the option. When the ground gets variable enough the 4000 in Smooth will kick the 3500's botty and that's a fact.
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Enhance verses normal timings

Post  calcretekid on Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:22 pm

Hi everyone,I have so far found about 120 small nuggets from point 1 to 7 grams at condiderable depth.Every target I switch from enhance to normal to special and can still hear the target,most times a little louder but as soon as I move the coil away all the ground noise just basically smothers the signal to the point where I cant tell the difference.I have used monos all my detecting life with 2100.3000.3500 and now 4500.the reason I think is because with enhance we move into much hotter ground and dont realise how bad it is till we flick off enhance.The whole idea of the gpx series was to be able to work much hotter ground with mono coils and the hot ground is where the nuggets are left that the others could not work in.I use nf 17"eliptical and the depth I have retrieved small nuggets to 3grms just blows me away.I have always hunted small to medium nuggets because there is a lot of them,but I am buying a 20"nfsl mono to hunt the deep ones in hot variable ground.As was said before the noise from the ground all day would dull your senses so much your would easily miss targets if not using enhance.On gold there is not much difference in the audio between enhance and normal in original ground.Hope this can shed a bit more light on the subject.
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