Is General the same as Deep.

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Re: Is General the same as Deep.

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:17 pm

My new comments in the quote are in green

Narrawa wrote:
I like my tone even lower (30-36) as the lower tone really brightens the signal against the background chatter which is always a high frequency
The background chatter is whatever you set the audio tone to.
What I am saying is if you listen to the chatter it is always fast where as the target response is slower and more broad and lower tone target has more of a contrast against the faster chatter when the tone is lower (for my hearing any way)
I can see the point your trying to make but for my hearing with a higher tone the target signal when only faint can be lost in the back ground chatter but is much easier to ID in the lower tone

...... as its real purpose is fine tuning the receive waiting time of the timing I have selected to suit the ground conditions.
You cannot alter the timing..other than selecting another timing. The wait and RX are not the same thing....one is factory set...the other is user controllable. You can tell the detector not to hear as much signal by lowering the RX gain....but nothing you do will alter the timings wait time.
scratch After much research........I guess I'll have to bake some humble pie as you are correct Embarassed Thanks mate for this!
Learn something every day, scratch I will try and figure out why my procedure works so good for me,
maybe I should post my exact procedure.

I do NOT use these settings to deal with EMI I use in this order these settings to deal with EMI:
-1 Auto or Manual Tune
-2 Audio type= boost, deep, normal, quiet.
-3 Stabilizer
-4 Target volume (I only lower this if its REAL bad)
Im lost.? scratch
No disrespect intended...just some clarification.

Ok hears what I do

Modus Oparandi:
When I arrive in a spot that I have never detected before first thing I do is Auto tune then I try all of the timings on the ground in factory pre-sett settings in NORMAL mode over a few buried targets.
I try the full timings like Sense Extra and Normal with a gain as low as 4 and the Smooth Class timings I try to keep the gain no lower than the F.P.
I adjust the Gain in factory pre-sett normal mode whilst swinging the detector over the ground until I have eliminated the ground signal. For example in Sens Extra the gain will normally have to be quite low to get it to work but in the smooth class Of timings the gain will almost always be close to max (except in extremely mineralized ground)
Now that I have an idea of how the timings perform on that particular ground I pick the best 3 and select a mode that I will program for each.
Now I select the 1st mode and Timing and think about what my goal is, am I patch hunting? Am I carefully searching a known area slowly? Ect...Ect.
I usually have one Timing for the average ground in the area, one for quiet ground that I also use for pinpointing, and one for the noisier more mineralized ground.
Example;
Sense Extra for quiet ground + pinpointing, Fine Gold for general use, Enhance for the more mineralized ground
or ground with more hot rocks, Ect....Ect.

Next I select my Motion setting to suit what I'm doing and the ground conditions/ EMI, this is nearly always V-slow or Slow as Med and Fast nearly always let to much EMI chatter through,I only really use Med or Fast in quiet conditions when patch hunting and sweeping quickly.

Now I usually crank the target volume up to max where it pretty much stays permanently, this makes the threshold a little louder and more chattery, but I put up with the extra chatter as the target response is much better with a high setting. I found over time after checking many targets before I dug them that in allot of cases the faint target would just disappear when when I lowered the target volume, so now I just leave it high.
I found you can quieten down the detector by lowering the target volume but this is at great cost in sensitivity/depth.

Now I play with the Audio Type and Stabilizer, First I always try boost and fine tune with the stabilizer next I try Deep and play with the stabilizer Ect...Ect.
What I am trying to do at this stage is Improve my signal to noise ratio by playing the stabilizer against the audio type and some times the motion setting while sweeping over a faint small target or a deep target.
I am trying to eliminate as much chatter as possible with out loosing any of the target response.
Most people who listen to my detector always comment on how chattery I run things but as soon as I sweep over a target it is easily identifiable.
It is a bit of a double edged sword though and the chatter can become quite tiring but I just pull my headphones off when I'm digging and it gives my ears a bit of a beak.
I almost never need to touch the gain after it was sett in the factory pre-set, and I have found in my testing and experience that lowering the gain instead of playing with the audio settings always came at a cost.
A cost I try to avoid if possible.

The signal peak, audio tone and volume limit, I just have them sett up for my hearing and hardly ever change them.

The response setting I always leave in normal.

The way I tell the difference in the EMI chatter and the ground signal is the noise the detector makes when not swinging= EMI and the noise the detector makes when swinging on the ground minus the EMI is the ground noise.

As the EMI conditions change later in the day the fist thing I do is re-tune (auto or manual) then if its still bad I play the with the Audio type, stabilizer, motion, again then finally the gain as a last resort.

Once the first timing specific mode is programmed I do the next and then the next so I can just quickly switch between them at will, without having to change every setting when I want to use a different timing for whatever reason.

Thanks Narrawa and Mechanic
scratch
As I have learned some valuable info and corrected my understanding of the Rx Gain as I always thought that it was a micro adjustment on the Rx side of the timings and not the amount of signal that is allowed through from the fixed timing wait time.
But now my understanding is that the timing Rx wait time is fixed and the Rx gain actually controls the amount/strength of signal from the Rx that is allowed through.

This is what I love about this site good members who are happy to give constructive advise and criticisms to the benefit of all members / scratch.........those who have not got ego problems any way Exclamation


Feel free to correct me further if I'm still wrong.
I find allot of GOLD and treasure but there is always much room for Improvement Exclamation

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Re: Is General the same as Deep.

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:31 pm

Ive been thinking about it all day and although I was wrong in my thinking as to what the Gain dose (thanks Narrawa Mechanic for the correction)
my procedure is still valid as I did not theoretically devise my system from my flawed understanding of the Gain
but I developed it over years of on the field work and experimentation and developed it that way.

And my thinking behind keeping the gain as high as possible and using the other settings to deal with the EMI has worked for me for years.
And even now I know that the gain controls the receive signal sensitivity.

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Re: Is General the same as Deep.

Post  Mechanic on Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:11 pm

HI Aurumpro,

Yes you are correct in saying that a lower gain will miss some weak targets, so dealing with the emi another way is beneficial. Sure there is more emi/chatter noise at the higher gain setting but also the target signals are at a higher amplitude, making them easier to decipher from the noise. You will find that the stabilizer will also mask some weak targets if set too low as this is kind of like a threshold setting between where the signal is given low or high gain, the high gain being the gain setting that you set. The low gain is a fixed setting(if it even does work like this!!!!). Think of it like this, 0v is your no target/ground/emi output voltage. The internal detector noise will make signals around +-7mv, so if this region is given a low gain, it won't be very noticeable on the audio. Now if you adjust the stabilizer it is adjusting the point where full gain is applied, so if the emi was bad, you would set the stabilizer with lower numbers, moving the gain point out further from 0v, eg out to +-20mv. Alternatively a higher number on the stabilizer will move the gain point closer to 0v, thus a noisier threshold. Now I don't know at all if this is actually how it is done, but this will have a similar effect.

I would have to have a good look at the manual before I could get a good idea on what the boost, deep, normal, and quiet settings do. Oh and I think there is a simulator on the ML website that shows graphs of the audio output and you can fiddle with settings and see how they change the audio.

Cheers Mick

Ps this might have been it, not as many controls as I thought.... http://www.minelab.com/aus/treasure-talk/gpx-audio-controls
Click on the labels button, it shows the where the stabilizer point is and what the volume does. Looks as though there could be an advantage running quiet audio.
PPS, well worth a look too http://www.minelab.com/aus/treasure-talk/gain-what-s-a-good-level-to-start-from

Now I'll send you the address to send 10% of your extra finds Very Happy Razz lol!

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Re: Is General the same as Deep.

Post  G.B. on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:02 am

Mechanic, Aurumpro, Narrawa

This all very interesting to me and very educational, could you explain what would happen when I run my stabilzer higher than my gain setting and am I putting myself at a disadvantage re depth and target response

Thanks
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Re: Is General the same as Deep.

Post  Narrawa on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:51 am

......could you explain what would happen when I run my stabilzer higher than my gain setting and am I putting myself at a disadvantage re depth and target response
If the EMI level was very low to none existent, than you would have a slight advantage.
As the stabilizer level is raised above the FP setting, you'll start to notice more instability/chatter creeping in. Thats an unwanted effect, especially if there is some EMI about.
The stabilizer is very effective at taming EMI when used on low numbers......its also able to pinch a little off the signal from targets if over used. Saying that, iv been known to over use the stabilizer and run extremely low numbers in the range of 2. Being fully aware of the downside of your settings choice, is another discussion.

Dumbing down the detector to simply gain a smooth threshold is not being fully aware of your settings choice. Running it to erratic is just as bad.

While we look for the perfect settings, we forget the work ML put into the FP settings. Without this benchmark, we'd be stuffed, and the settings war would be worse than listening to someone tell us their building a Minelab killer. Rolling Eyes
These days, i pay very little attention to settings posted by others, whenever im in doubt with my own concoction of settings......i reboot into FP....dump the GB memory by going into GB off and start again. Does all this help you ask.???...sure it doe's. Laughing

While settings play i big roll in what it is we are looking for.....perception plays an even bigger roll. Settings are are dime a dozen......perception cannot be written.



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Re: Is General the same as Deep.

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:58 am

Mechanic wrote:HI Aurumpro,

Yes you are correct in saying that a lower gain will miss some weak targets, so dealing with the emi another way is beneficial. Sure there is more emi/chatter noise at the higher gain setting but also the target signals are at a higher amplitude, making them easier to decipher from the noise. You will find that the stabilizer will also mask some weak targets if set too low as this is kind of like a threshold setting between where the signal is given low or high gain, the high gain being the gain setting that you set. The low gain is a fixed setting(if it even does work like this!!!!). Think of it like this, 0v is your no target/ground/emi output voltage. The internal detector noise will make signals around +-7mv, so if this region is given a low gain, it won't be very noticeable on the audio. Now if you adjust the stabilizer it is adjusting the point where full gain is applied, so if the emi was bad, you would set the stabilizer with lower numbers, moving the gain point out further from 0v, eg out to +-20mv. Alternatively a higher number on the stabilizer will move the gain point closer to 0v, thus a noisier threshold. Now I don't know at all if this is actually how it is done, but this will have a similar effect.

I would have to have a good look at the manual before I could get a good idea on what the boost, deep, normal, and quiet settings do. Oh and I think there is a simulator on the ML website that shows graphs of the audio output and you can fiddle with settings and see how they change the audio.

Cheers Mick

Ps this might have been it, not as many controls as I thought.... http://www.minelab.com/aus/treasure-talk/gpx-audio-controls
Click on the labels button, it shows the where the stabilizer point is and what the volume does. Looks as though there could be an advantage running quiet audio.
PPS, well worth a look too http://www.minelab.com/aus/treasure-talk/gain-what-s-a-good-level-to-start-from

Now I'll send you the address to send 10% of your extra finds Very Happy Razz lol!

Thanks for the links Mick
The visual aid of the graphs helps allot in understanding the roles that the audio settings play,
and reinforces my way of thinking in keeping the gain high and using the audio settings to deal with the EMI chatter and help brighten the target response without losing depth/sensitivity.

Are you like the Tax Office Mick? Sad
Do you require 7 years of find statistics to estimate my future finds so you can tax me in advance? Sad

OOPPS.............. I accidentally left my field journal find statistics and school home work on the floor and the dog ate it Q03 ................I swear



Last edited by aurumpro on Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Is General the same as Deep.

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:40 am

G.B. wrote:Mechanic, Aurumpro, Narrawa

This all very interesting to me and very educational, could you explain what would happen when I run my stabilzer higher than my gain setting and am I putting myself at a disadvantage re depth and target response

Thanks

Mate you are missing the point.
In my opinion the gain has to be set up for the ground you are on and the timing you are using and then the stabilizer and audio settings are used to fine tune, but you are trying to keep as much target response as possible whilst limiting EMI chatter to a comfortable level.
There is no magic setting or range you have to figure that out on the ground on the day.

The timing that you choose will have the most effect on what the other settings will be.
Example;
On a particular piece of ground you might be able to run 3 timings say 1-Sens Extra, 2-Enhance and 3-Sens Smooth.
The optimum gain setting and stabilizer setting will be different for all of the timings even tough you are on the same ground
here's an example from my prospecting diary(GPX 4500 year 2009)
Sens Extra- Gain 4, Audio type Quiet, Motion V-Slow, stabilizer 12
Enhance- Gain 11, Audio type Deep, Motion V-slow, Stabilizer 11
Sense Smooth- Gain 14 Audio type Deep, Motion Slow Stabilizer 13

I used all of these on the same ground on the same day,
these are just to give you an example so don't just copy em, do the work your self
and figure out the best ones for your area and day.
But notice how different they are, even though Sens Extra has a very low gain and a higher stabilizer it is still the moist sensitive/deep seeking of the settings.

What I am fist trying to achieve is to eliminate the ground signal first in factory pre-sett normal mode by adjusting the Gain and then ground balancing and sweeping the coil to check after adjustment.
once this is achieved I play with the audio settings to smooth out the chatter whilst keeping as much of the target response as possible.
What I am after is the best signal to noise ratio that I can get, I'm not obsessing over getting a perfectly smooth threshold. Instead I'm listening to the target response to chatter ratio and trying to find the best
target response.

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Re: Is General the same as Deep.

Post  G.B. on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:21 pm

Thank Aurumpro,

I now get what you mean, I was able to run Sensitive extra today with gain of 6 stabaliser 12 until I got close to the iron stone, used quiet audio as it seemed handle the wet ground best in extra and enhance. Near the iron stone had to use enhance 13 gain 12 stabiliser, motion v slow and slow at times. Detector ran well shotty pellets and bullets screamed out, few hot clay pockets but balanced most out. Unfortunately no gold today.
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Re: Is General the same as Deep.

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:57 am

G.B. wrote: Thank Aurumpro,

I now get what you mean, I was able to run Sensitive extra today with gain of 6 stabaliser 12 until I got close to the iron stone, used quiet audio as it seemed handle the wet ground best in extra and enhance. Near the iron stone had to use enhance 13 gain 12 stabiliser, motion v slow and slow at times. Detector ran well shotty pellets and bullets screamed out, few hot clay pockets but balanced most out. In the full timings clay, anthills and hot rocks can be a nightmare Unfortunately no gold today.

Glad I could help you G.B.
Now you understand how to experiment to tune in the best settings.
The other advantage of using this process and trying to use the more sensitive timings like Sens Extra or Normal
is that you can read the ground better.

Example from field journel:
I'm detecting along in Sens Extra the detector is running good the ground appears the same in the whole area and then suddenly I hit an area where the detector becomes noisy.
So I play with the settings in Sens Extra but it wont work, it wont even ground balance.
So I turn them back and then switch to Enhance and its running fine again.
I now search the noisy mineralised ground in Enhance and after 5 mins I pick up my first nugget for the day.
MMMMM....... I pause and think about what has just happened.
Why is the gold here?
Whats different about this area?
How dose the gold look?
Has it traveled far?
Ect...Ect.....
After thinking I realize that the gold came from the noisy ground, so I decide to search the noisy ground and see if I can pick up any more.
And only 3m away I pick up another.
Now I decide that this ground needs to be carefully searched.
But how big is this mineralised area? I ask myself.
I decide it could be very helpful if I can identify the boundary's of the mineralised area, so I switch back to Sense Extra and the setting that were working before and approach the area from different angles.
After a couple of hours I narrow the area down to about a 10x30m area and I carefully search the whole area in enhance.
after 9 hours I finish searching the area and the close surrounds and end up with 43g of smaller nuggets, all of them came out of the mineralised area.
So now I just start again and I now look hard to find another of the same isolated noisy ground patches that the gold was associated with.

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Re: Is General the same as Deep.

Post  rc62burke on Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:45 am

aurumpro wrote:
G.B. wrote: Thank Aurumpro,

I now get what you mean, I was able to run Sensitive extra today with gain of 6 stabaliser 12 until I got close to the iron stone, used quiet audio as it seemed handle the wet ground best in extra and enhance. Near the iron stone had to use enhance 13 gain 12 stabiliser, motion v slow and slow at times. Detector ran well shotty pellets and bullets screamed out, few hot clay pockets but balanced most out. In the full timings clay, anthills and hot rocks can be a nightmare Unfortunately no gold today.

Glad I could help you G.B.
Now you understand how to experiment to tune in the best settings.
The other advantage of using this process and trying to use the more sensitive timings like Sens Extra or Normal
is that you can read the ground better.

Example from field journel:
I'm detecting along in Sens Extra the detector is running good the ground appears the same in the whole area and then suddenly I hit an area where the detector becomes noisy.
So I play with the settings in Sens Extra but it wont work, it wont even ground balance.
So I turn them back and then switch to Enhance and its running fine again.
I now search the noisy mineralised ground in Enhance and after 5 mins I pick up my first nugget for the day.
MMMMM....... I pause and think about what has just happened.
Why is the gold here?
Whats different about this area?
How dose the gold look?
Has it traveled far?
Ect...Ect.....
After thinking I realize that the gold came from the noisy ground, so I decide to search the noisy ground and see if I can pick up any more.
And only 3m away I pick up another.
Now I decide that this ground needs to be carefully searched.
But how big is this mineralised area? I ask myself.
I decide it could be very helpful if I can identify the boundary's of the mineralised area, so I switch back to Sense Extra and the setting that were working before and approach the area from different angles.
After a couple of hours I narrow the area down to about a 10x30m area and I carefully search the whole area in enhance.
after 9 hours I finish searching the area and the close surrounds and end up with 43g of smaller nuggets, all of them came out of the mineralised area.
So now I just start again and I now look hard to find another of the same isolated noisy ground patches that the gold was associated with.


This is an awesome example of the need to know what the ground is doing below your feet & why a bit of noise coming at you is a good thing.
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