I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

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I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:47 am

The other day I was testing Normal timings and found that I dug about 15 holes that sounded like really good targets but there was nothing there. When I got a signal id flip it over to enhance to compare the signal (ground balance and checked at different depths as I dug), but never got any response.

The ground had a slight rain on it the previous day but was dry an inch down. It was mainly in an area of tertiary deposit over here in Gippsland so not super noisy. Can't really put it down to clay domes either. In one hole i did get a target which was down around 6', it turned out to be a hot rock. I had the gain and stabilizer way down and audio in Quiet. What confused me was the fact that it seemed like the settings were ok (meaning, you could swing without it going nuts) and then I'd hit a great sounding target and dig for nothing. I'm presuming that the ground is mineralized to the point that the Normal Timings are just too sensitive.

I was recently reading about someone who usually uses the Normal timings but gain and stabilizer turned down. Another guy on Youtube seems to do ok using the 14" coiltek elite in Normal but when using the 11' coiltek elite switches to Enhance. I've got both coils but my testing was with the 11'. Is anyone able to detect using the Normal timings or do most stick to Enhance or Fine gold? In this particular spot, I know there would be more just out of reach of Enhance. Could it be that I just have to put up with the false signals and learn how to discount them in a quicker manner rather than dig too much?  Most of the gold in this area is under 1gm. A sdc and Zed goes over it as well but we all seem to miss bits that another finds.

Cheers Jin

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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  davsgold on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:18 am

G'day Jin

You have basically answered you own question, yes you will dig a lot of false signals in the "Normal" timings. some ground has mineralized small pockets that give a good signal in normal and nothing in "enhance" or "smooth" or "fine gold" it's just how it is. Yes Normal is in theory going to give more depth than the other timings, but if the ground is giving to many false signals then you loose any benefit, and enhance is the better choice.

Ground Balance can help with distinguishing between real targets and false targets, much practice is needed for this.

cheers dave

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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:38 am

Thanks Dave, Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I haven't used Normal that much with the 4500 it's stayed mostly in Enhance. I was also watching one off Bugwhiskers videos after following the QED thread and noticed how the 5000 and 4500 didn't hear a nugget at depth but did using Normal timings and thought geez I'm leaving stuff behind. But as you say the detector has to be usable. Also testing in one spot is different to covering variable ground.

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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:47 am

davsgold wrote:G'day Jin

You have basically answered you own question, yes you will dig a lot of false signals in the "Normal" timings.  some ground has mineralized small pockets that give a good signal in normal and nothing in "enhance" or "smooth" or "fine gold" it's just how it is.  Yes Normal is in theory going to give more depth than the other timings, but if the ground is giving to many false signals then you loose any benefit, and enhance is the better choice.

Ground Balance can help with distinguishing between real targets and false targets, much practice is needed for this.

cheers dave

Sorry forgot to mention after reading your post .... When you say ground balance. I balance in a few spots within the target response area to see if I'm chasing ground noise. In other words, if the response moves from one spot to another its ground noise, so back fill and move on. However, should you ground balance directly over the target? wouldn't that balance a small bit of gold out? I know I should now this but I don't usually balance over the target for that reason so may have got into a bad habit and left holes thinking they were ground noise.

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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  davsgold on Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:02 pm

G'day Jin

With Ground Balance, I detect in fixed and use the green button for balancing. This is what I used to do with the 4500, works the same on a 5000, have the GB set to "Medium" and when a target/or potential target is located re GB near the target then swing over target then while swinging over target hold green button in and keep swing over target, then swing to the side of target and release green button and if the GB is out then the target is a potential metal target, if the GB is not out it means that whatever is under the coil has been GB'd out and the only way to make sure this method works for you is to dig each method until your sure you understand what is happening.

As always if in doubt dig it out, but after some practice this method worked well for me, and maybe I missed some gold but I also got plenty and spent less time digging false targets. Very Happy

I now use the might 7000 and hardly ever use the 4500, and this method that I have described I don't use for the 7000.

cheers dave

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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:16 pm

Thanks Dave, Sound advice, ill do some testing trying that method next time im out. Thanks

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To dig or not to dig

Post  Reg Wilson on Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:19 pm

Jin, when using the more sensitive settings on any machine you will inevitably bring up spurious signals as well as real ones. Early manual ground balance machines enabled the user to first tweak up the GB, sweep over the suspected target, note the response, then adjust the GB down, and sweep again. A noticeable difference in target response meant that you were almost certainly over a false signal.
With auto GB you must trust the machine to do this function for you, by sweeping back and forth over the noise, keeping the coil in a steady direction and height. This may take a number of sweeps, but by listening carefully you will discern a change in response if the target is not real. The GPZ is particularly efficient at this function, although users must be patient, as it requires as many as twice the number of sweeps for the result to become evident.
The QED performs this function quite well when used like an SD2000 or SD2100, as it is a manual ground balance machine.
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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:04 pm

Thanks Reg, I remember you mentioning about auto ground balance before. Next time I detect I'll spend some time practicing how to check for targets/ground noise.

I'm a little embarrassed that after a year and a half I haven't mastered a simple thing like checking a target response against possible ground noise. I just tend to dig when there's a signal. In Enhance its not really a problem after scraping little top soil i can usually tell if its worth digging. But i want to use some of the more aggressive settings now and its becoming a problem for me.

Along with the advice from Dave ill try what you suggest here.... "With auto GB you must trust the machine to do this function for you, by sweeping back and forth over the noise, keeping the coil in a steady direction and height. This may take a number of sweeps, but by listening carefully you will discern a change in response if the target is not real."

Thank you for your help.


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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  deutran on Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:17 pm

Hi Jin
If you move the coil very slowly over the target and I mean very,the target will fade if its not metallic.Also the real target will give a repeatable signal most of the time in exactly the same location unlike hot ground.If you lift the coil lead will fade quicker than gold.
Try sensitive extra which is about halfway between normal and enhance for less falsing than normal.
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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:39 pm

Thank you deutran, A little bit more info I didn't know. I think with your tips, as well as Dave's and Regs advice I should be able to get a little quicker at sorting out ground noises. Thanks for your help.

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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  G.B. on Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:50 am

Jin.
Next time you're detecting and you feel it is going ok over the ground you're detecting and you get a signal such as you described a good way to check is to using fixed ground balance, rebalance directly over the target noise by using the quick track button and pumping the coil as you would do for balancing your detector anyway.

Now when you are ground balancing over the target and the signal diminishes or dissapears completely without changing the ground balance check the surrounding ground by moving your coil around the immediate area of the initial target area and if the detector is out of balance then can pretty well dismiss  the original target as ground noise.

If not satisfied do it in reverse to double check balance away from the target and then detect over the target if signal is back then it will further confirm it to be ground noise.

Hot rocks will be a problem with normal thats just something you need to learn to deal with.

When using auto ground balance after plenty of cross checking l have never found that it balances out a genuine target.  

Auto groung balance on the 4500 is very good in highly variable ground even though l prefer fixed, auto can save lots of time in highly variable ground by not having to constantly rebalance in fixed/manual.

Once you get the hang of manual/fixed ground balancing then it becomes second nature and you will do it in your sleep even on highly variable ground.

Keep practising and you will get the hang of it.

The 4500 was one of the best detector produced and still accounts for many good finds in todays detecting enviroment.
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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Jonathan Porter on Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:09 am

Reg Wilson wrote:...................With auto GB you must trust the machine to do this function for you, by sweeping back and forth over the noise, keeping the coil in a steady direction and height. This may take a number of sweeps, but by listening carefully you will discern a change in response if the target is not real. The GPZ is particularly efficient at this function, although users must be patient, as it requires as many as twice the number of sweeps for the result to become evident.
The QED performs this function quite well when used like an SD2000 or SD2100, as it is a manual ground balance machine.

Reg if you do this with the GPZ you could potentially (Will) leave gold in the ground (I'm not trying to flame you BTW just offering my experiences and opinion) Repeated sweeping over a target especially a faint target in Auto mode will inevitably balance out said target. The only definitive way to determine a ground noise over a target noise is to "FIX" the GB and then progressively lift the coil and sweep carefully and evenly paying attention to the response, a ground signal will generally not last anywhere near the distance a target signal will as the coil is moved away. I highly recommend users have the "USER" button of the GPZ programmed to the GB mode and fix the GB using a careful sweep of the coil in the vicinity to get an average of the localised ground conditions prior to locking the GB. With practice this method can also be used on most hot rocks.

JP
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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Reg Wilson on Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:35 am

Jonathan, a faint target always requires a bit of soil removed to ascertain the potential. The auto ground balance will not in my experience knock out gold. I could not possibly count the number of times I have tried to prove my machine wrong, and it it is always right.
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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Jonathan Porter on Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:06 am

Reg Wilson wrote:Jonathan, a faint target always requires a bit of soil removed to ascertain the potential. The auto ground balance will not in my experience knock out gold. I could not possibly count the number of times I have tried to prove my machine wrong, and it it is always right.

Hi Reg, best to err on the side of caution, but I can assure you the auto GB will knock out targets if repeatedly swept over, not so much the definite's but the right at extreme range of signal response absolutely. If the auto GB was infallible then Minelab would be able to make a target only detector right? The auto GB is not infallible it treats everything like its ground, if a target signal is greater than a certain amount then the GB algorithm just pauses the GB, that's why it takes a long time to track out what you call a ground noise, but track it out it will if you repeatedly sweep over the target zone. I am pretty sure your not just waving over the target and relying solely on the auto GB based on your comments, so I recommend users to use caution and a range of other clues or indicators on potential deep target signals such as, fixing the GB, lifting the coil, resetting and averaging the GB nearby, removing some soil etc.

JP
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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  davsgold on Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:14 am

Very good advice JP Very Happy

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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Reg Wilson on Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:20 am

I guess the old adage applies, "when in doubt, dig it out", however, I doubt anyone will get rich by following me to dig up the 'ground noises' that I leave behind. By all means try what I suggest, then dig it anyway, and see how you go. The proof of the pudding etc. etc.
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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Guest on Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:39 am

Thank you G.B for that in depth explanation. After reading everyones comments, I'll print this thread out and try everything that has been suggested for myself out in the field this week.

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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  redcaveman on Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:01 am

hi jin
have you tried using the ferrite ring and ground bal again near target when this happens
red
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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Guest on Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:48 am

redcaveman wrote:hi jin
have you tried using the ferrite ring and ground bal again near target when this happens
red

G'day redcaveman,

I think you will find the ferrite ring will not work for the GPX machine!! Suspect T37

Cheers.

Mike.

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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  redcaveman on Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:57 pm

hi mike
you learn something new every day
cheers red
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Re: I was testing Enhance V Normal timings and have a question .... please

Post  Narrawa on Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:02 pm

People forget the Enhance/Smooth timings abilities to knock out ground noise. Some badly decayed rusted metal falls into the category of not being picked up due to these timings ability to ignore ground noise. Ironstone hotrocks as we know, can host gold....careful how you use your TRACKING. And careful just how close you decide to GB near a sus target....the GB system takes a average of the ground around the coil...not just under it.

SDC users should also pay close attention to the amount of time they swing over a sus target...those machines are fixed in Auto GB...and share the ability to track out sus targets if the user is unaware.
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