gold tax rip off

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gold tax rip off

Post  tirp56 on Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:14 am

hi guys has anyone been slugged the 10%tax by gold buyers when selling their hard won ????

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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  slimpickens on Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:45 am

tirp56 wrote:  hi guys has anyone been slugged the 10%tax by gold buyers when selling their hard won ????

A bit more info mate?

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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  Old Hand on Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:56 pm

most gold buyers take 15% and some more is that what you are referring to regards john Very Happy
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  granite2 on Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:15 pm

Sold gold yesterday, no tax. Usual 15% off days spot price whisper is OK.
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  Ismael on Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:11 pm

tirp56 wrote:  hi guys has anyone been slugged the 10%tax by gold buyers when selling their hard won ????

The government sneakily made gold under the bullion tax regime meaning you now pay the 10% gst on ALL gold... Came in on April 1st 2017
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  deutran on Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:46 pm

Does this mean we can claim the 10% charged for our gear/costs against the 10% charged when selling gold?
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  Ismael on Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:57 pm

deutran wrote:Does this mean we can claim the 10% charged for our gear/costs against the 10% charged when selling gold?

I presume if you are registered for GST and your prospecting is a registered business and not just a hobby, then yes you would claim all expenses incurred when prospecting... Cool Cool Cool
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  deutran on Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:59 pm

Actually we would need to charge the GST ourselves when we sell to the buyer is that correct?
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  boobook on Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:22 am

Selling gold should be similar to the way it (above board) works in the opal industry, both being in a similar minerals group.
You offer your product (gold, opal, sapphire etc.) to a buyer for an asking price.
The buyer makes his offer which you accept......

Now, if you have a legitimate business with an ABN you are then entitled to multiply the selling price by 1.1 which gives a 10% GST figure which you pay to the ATO by way of your quarterly return. You must also give the buyer an itemised receipt showing the taxable amount.
If the buyer has an ABN he then claims the 10% back from the ATO if applicable.

Because you are running a legitimate business (prospecting, mining etc.) with an ABN, all your operating expenses/costs etc. are deductable against gross incomes when lodging annual ATO returns.

But.... where the buyer simply offers a cash amount (spot price/gm. less a %) one would assume the % deduction is to cover loss due to impurities or whatever, acceptance and the sale is done.
Mike

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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  davsgold on Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:32 am

boobook wrote:Selling gold should be similar to the way it (above board) works in the opal industry, both being in a similar minerals group.
You offer your product (gold, opal, sapphire etc.) to a buyer for an asking price.
The buyer makes his offer which you accept......

Now, if you have a legitimate business with an ABN you are then entitled to multiply the selling price by 1.1 which gives a 10% GST figure which you pay to the ATO by way of your quarterly return. You must also give the buyer an itemised receipt showing the taxable amount.
If the buyer has an ABN he then claims the 10% back from the ATO if applicable.

Because you are running a legitimate business (prospecting, mining etc.) with an ABN, all your operating expenses/costs etc. are deductable against gross incomes when lodging annual ATO returns.

But.... where the buyer simply offers a cash amount (spot price/gm. less a %) one would assume the % deduction is to cover loss due to impurities or whatever, acceptance and the sale is done.
Mike

Like Mike said, easy to understand, one way is a hobby sale, the other way is a business sale. Very Happy

cheers dave
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  UNCLE BOB on Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:02 pm

Ismael wrote:
deutran wrote:Does this mean we can claim the 10% charged for our gear/costs against the 10% charged when selling gold?

I presume if you are registered for GST and your prospecting is a registered business and not just a hobby, then yes you would claim all expenses incurred when prospecting... Cool Cool Cool

Selling natural good nuggets under a "hobby" should not incur 10% GST.
Natural good nuggets are not classed as "gold bullion"
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  boobook on Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:24 pm

Uncle Bob.
The concept of GST is still misunderstood by many people.
The buyer, not the seller, pays the GST.
When you buy fuel, look at the docket, it will say you paid $x GST (tax) on the purchase.
When you go to the supermarket ditto
Same for any other purchase made from an ABN registered seller of Goods or Services.
Its one of the sneakiest taxes ever, 10% on pretty much whatever you purchase.
But its the way society works these days, eh! Crying or Very sad
Mike

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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  nero_design on Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:40 pm




tirp56 wrote:  hi guys has anyone been slugged the 10%tax by gold buyers when selling their hard won ????

The new Gold Tax Laws apply to Gold Bullion to prevent fraudulent abuse of the tax system by organized criminal gangs.

To make sure fraudulent activity doesn't simply shift from gold to other metals, the changes will apply to all precious metals, said Kelly O'Dwyer, Minister for Revenue and Financial Services.

Gold Bullion is any precious metal with a hallmark and an assurity hallmark. This is why gold nuggets were previously specifically not termed "Bullion" by the ATO and were exempt of definition as Bullion.  But by shifting the law to cover "precious metals", we have the closing of a loophole where people were melting gold and reselling it without any GST going to the government. This was either stolen or "recycled" gold.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/australia-cracks-down-on-gold-industry-tax-fraud-20170402-gvbvbq.html

When you find gold when prospecting, you were not paying tax on it until you started selling quite a bit of it and it became a professional source of income.  You were allowed to sell up to $55-75K worth of gold before it crossed the threshold from "the proceeds of a hobby" to "professional income".

The question is, has this changed for the hobbyist?  I can't find any references to Gold Nuggets or Alluvial Gold in the newspaper articles.  Is the Hobbyist no longer permitted to make money without taxing their hobby?

The quote here comes from the Link above:
"The crack-down will be implemented by reversing arrangements for remitting GST, so that those buying precious metals must remit and report it, not those selling them."
- [Kelly O'Dwyer, Minister for Revenue and Financial Services]

I'm confused by exactly what is happening.  Can someone else add their thoughts?  How much, and in what ways, does it impact the detecting community?  (Ismael seems to have a grasp of the situation).
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  Ayounomad on Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:57 pm

G.day all , yes this is a rip off ...I've been buying precious metals for years and now I find out I've just lost 10% to the tax man if I sell .Reverse GST ???..No mention of it when I am buying the stuff ......This has to change ..VERY sneaky ..Bloody politicians , I hate them with a passion ..Introduced on 1st of April ..Is this a joke ?? All this is going to do is make people sell privately instead of through official businesses  ..  A few businesses rip the gov off so lets tax the non business customer ..I've just lost about 20k in my mind and I'm depressed/disgusted scratch Mad Evil or Very Mad
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  nero_design on Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:44 pm

Ayounomad wrote: ..I've just lost about 20k in my mind and I'm depressed/disgusted...

According the the article, only gold BUYERS are being taxed... not the sellers.

Are you a buyer?
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  Ismael on Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:47 pm

nero_design wrote:
Ayounomad wrote: ..I've just lost about 20k in my mind and I'm depressed/disgusted...

According the the article, only gold BUYERS are being taxed... not the sellers.  

Are you a buyer?

But as normal they pass it on to us by deducting 10% off the purchase price... I sold some gold recently and they told me that ALL buyers must pay the tax this includes cash converters and the like so where do you think they will get the 10% from? Evil or Very Mad (I keep editing this as I go along so sorry if someone else is posting), My mate shopped around and found someone unaware of the new law and told him after he had sold it... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  Kon61gold on Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:58 pm

Q33   The Government imposed a new $billion dollar tax on the banks & from who do you think the banks will recoup their tax losses from, certainly not from their profits?  The government now imposed a new "Google Tax" saying its to fight/recoup a couple of $billion dollars, off the so called multinational company's, selling their goods/services here & who do you think these so called multinationals will recoup their imposed 10% tax loss from, certainly not from their profits?  
Sadly (& once again) it all comes at a cost, to what I call, the guarantors of society, the hard working, tax paying consumer. The government & not just this government, but all governments around the world, are known to give with one hand & take back with two.
Past nations, (some of which ended up bankrupt), warned Australia, many years ago, to protect their industries & not  fully open up its doors, in trading with the overpopulated masses, for it will lead to the shutdown of many a local Industry, (of which it has) alas, only to have it fall on deaf ears. The government found it more important towards brainwashing people, into believing the words "we just can't compete".  I say, why even try to compete with the cheaply made, mass produced, overseas products, when you know you can't?  We need not compete with the masses, but lean more, towards finding ways, of producing/exceeding/excelling, from that of whats cheaply mass made.  
Shame on you governments. In terms of natural mineral wealth, Australia is one of the richest nations on earth, (feeding many other a nation, in the process of development as well), but instead of investing in your own industry, in your own people, you continue to concentrate, more on selling off, even the few bright people & little industry you have left. Sad  

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gold tax ripoff

Post  tirp56 on Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:22 pm

gee havent i opened up a can of worms sold some 23 ct gold and only got $42 .00 for itinstead of around$50 when queried i got told there was a 10%tax on it wont get caught again as i was under the understanding there wasn, any tax on small amounts found by an amatuer prospector ,cheers al

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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  UNCLE BOB on Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:27 pm

Selling gold nuggets as a hobbyist had no GST attached to it as there is no company buying the Gold nuggets and no company selling either.
As Nero was saying, the GST threshold is $75,000.
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  Ismael on Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:21 pm

UNCLE BOB wrote:Selling gold nuggets as a hobbyist had no GST attached to it as there is no company buying the Gold nuggets and no company selling either.
As Nero was saying,  the GST threshold is $75,000.

If you are selling to a private person no business involved then you are correct but if you are selling to a business that buys gold, jewellery etc then they are normally a second hand dealer and loan business and as such most would be doing 3 monthly BAS statements and paying gst. The Perth mint doesn't apply the gst from what I have been told but charges a $250 processing fee. Mad Mad
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Re: gold tax rip off

Post  davsgold on Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:50 pm

If your selling gold (nuggets) as a business you get the agreed $ price PLUS 10% GST which is then offset against any other purchase which has GST and the balance at the reporting time is either a + or - amount either owing to or a refund from the Tax department.

If your selling gold (nuggets) as a hobby then you neither get GST nor pay GST and the buyer can not say that they are taking 10% as GST from you at the point of sale, you get the agreed $ price between you and the buyer.

Most gold buyers will take a % amount from the spot price for their profit margin and the estimated amount of purity of the gold, this may be 10% or 15% but it has nothing to do with GST.

Imagine if you went to the Supermarket to buy some goods and then told the cashier that you as the buyer wanted 10% of the total purchase paid to you, when in fact it is you the buyer that is paying the 10% GST on the goods you purchase.

The gold buyer can't give you the seller a TAX invoice for a purchase + 10% GST on anything, it makes no sense, it is you the seller that would give the buyer a TAX invoice for a sale + 10% GST and only if you have an ABN and registered for GST.

cheers dave
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