Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

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Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Mr Mars on Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:14 am

Hi everyone.
Forgive me for asking something that i'm sure has been covered in various discussions.
I live in Perth and just a few hours drive from the goldfields. I have a trip planned for september.
I am new to the hobby, I have a read a lot from various sources but it's all a bit overwhelming and could do with a nudge in the right direction.
I sincerely want to do the right thing at all times but as much as i try to find out where to go, what the law is, where to tread, not to tread i get more entangled in the problems WA prospectors seem to face.
I have read it's cool to prospect on pending tenements although couldn't find it simply stated on the DPM website. I read a thread which turned into a bun fight over whether or not its the right thing to do. Some say go for ya life, other say its the lazy way and ripping off someones hard work in finding a spot to place a tenement on....i don't know, i'm just a rookie trying to do the right thing.
I have a spot in mind which is not too far but far enough have a crack at.
The first thing is where do find a map of pastoral leases which can be overlaid onto google earth?
Second thing is if there is a pastoral lease with a pending tenement on top of it i assume i need the permission from the pastoral lease holder, or does the pending tenement over ride the pastoral lease? What are the chances of getting permission anyway?
Third thing is crown land seems to be a free for all to swing the detector over but i have looked at heaps of places for a map which can be overlaid onto google earth?
Is google earth even the best option for all this?
There seem to be so many you tube vids of people willy nilly wandering around in WA digging up chunks of gold. what do they know that i dont?
Any help will be much appreciated.
M.M


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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  goldtalkleonora on Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:42 am

Hi MM

With a WA Miners right....Pending leases (Blue on Tengraph) are available for prospecting...and no real issues in my opinion.
VCL (Vacant Crown Land) is also available for prospecting.
With a Section 40E permit, all Exploration Licenses are available for prospecting.
P's and M's you will need written permission.
You do not need any consent from any pastoralist...but it's a matter of courtesy to pick up the phone and let them know.

You can put tenements on Google earth. google it on youtube for tutorials...or come and do a training course with us.

It is a steep learning curve mate....but that's the challenge and fun of it..if it was easy then everyone would be doing it!!

Any questions feel free to post or message me.

Tony Pilkington
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Mr Mars on Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:52 pm

Thanks Tony
i have already loaded the files for pending tenements, live tenements, minedex and some geology files which are proving to be very handy.
As you say if it was all easy everyone would be having a crack.
In my own mind i think i should be able to get the kmz G.E files for pending, live, pastoral, crown, geology etc.. all from one place and turn them on and off as i need to identify the hot spots.
i can find hard copy pastoral and crown land maps but nothing digital to load onto G.E.
The contacts for pastoral lease owners is not easy to find either.
One more question. The blue pending tenements i am looking at are all pending exploration tenements. In fact every single one is an exploration tenement so unsure as to why people are not qualifying this by saying blue is ok as long as it's not an exploration tenement, in which case a 40E is required. Perhaps i have downloaded the wrong ones!
Anyway, thanks again.
M.M

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  ichi-ban on Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:56 am

If it's BLUE, it's pending, if it's pending you don't need a 40e as it is Vacant Crown Land until it is granted. After it attains "granted" status you need a 40e.

Just be careful of tenements that are "BLUE on GREEN". That means its an application overlaying an area that has already been granted. It sounds strange but it does happen a lot. Its complicated.

HTH

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Mr Mars on Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:22 am

cool, thanks
there are some blue areas that are a more intense blue so i guess these are the ones you are talking about. although i'd expect to see the green once i turn off the blue layer.
cheers

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Mike54 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:16 am

G'day Mr Mars and Welcome to the forum,

Another thing to watch out for is they are updated on a daily basis, which means pending today and live/active tomorrow. study

Anyway I wish you good luck with your new adventure and may all your holes be golden ones. T25

Cheers.

Mike.

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Mr Mars on Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:26 pm

a good reminder, thanks mike
that brings up another issue
there will be no internet where im going so i can't see how this problem can be solved
any ideas anyonne
m.m

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Mike54 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:17 pm

G'day Mr Mars,

If you get the info up on the tenament you'll see start/end dates, it usually takes 6-9 months roughly for a pending lease to go live from the start date. We pegged our leases this time last year and they became live at the end of March this year, which was about 6 months, hope this helps. Very Happy

Cheers.

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Mr Mars on Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:51 pm

ah that helps
these are only a month old so shouldn't be too risky
thanks again

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  ichi-ban on Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:34 pm

Usual time from mark out/application to "granted "is about 9 months. The Mines Dept have a policy of a 60 day turnaround and they can achieve that these days. However, the extra time  delay is caused by any tenement having to go through the Native Title (NT) checking procedure and that takes up the most time. The Mines Dept won't even start the "grant process" until the NT part is cleared. The NT part is a BBQ stopper in these circumstances.

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  davsgold on Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:26 pm

ichi-ban wrote: However, the extra time  delay is caused by any tenement having to go through the Native Title (NT) checking procedure and that takes up the most time.

and about 2/3rds of the application fee for a Prospecting lease. Suspect each and every time the same piece of ground goes through the same process. Suspect

cheers dave
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Mike54 on Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:43 pm

Yes Les,

That took 4 months with our Leases, as we received a letter from the DMP saying it had gone through all the other criteria it was now going into the NT part of the process.    Shocked

Cheers.

Mike

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Camping on Pending Leases

Post  Jigalong on Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:39 pm

if you are on a Pending Lease and you have not advised the Pastoral Leaseholder that you are there, is it legal to detect, but illegal to camp ? Thanks.
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  goldtalkleonora on Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:42 pm

nothing to do with the pastoralist...if you have permission to prospect then you have permission to camp. You need to be 400m from wells/bores and 100m from significant infrastructure
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Tributer on Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:09 pm

Hi Jigalong. With a miners right you can camp and prospect on vacant/blue ground on a pastoral lease, however you must try to inform the pastoralist you are going to be there and for how long. Some pastoralists can get upset if you don't tell them you will be there and they will inform the DMP pastoralist liaison officer for their district about it and will invariably say you upset mustering activities or such. It is good practice to ring or drop an email "informing them you will be prospecting and maybe describing your group vehicles". It helps protect our hobby cheers steve

The exact wording from DMP/regulations is:

Pastoralist notifications
Miner’s Right holders intending to prospect on pastoral leases must take all reasonable and practicable steps to:
notify pastoralists where they will be and for how long. This ensures the safety of the prospectors if the pastoralist has planned activities (such as mustering, baiting, vermin culling, etc).
•take all necessary steps to prevent fire, damage to trees, other property or livestock
•cause as little inconvenience as possible to pastoralists and restrict the number of passes or re-passes to a minimum
•comply with reasonable request made by pastoralists
•repair any damage caused by vehicles to tracks and to lease holder improvements, during the passing and repassing.
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Topcat on Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:34 pm

The way I have found by past experience is to always let the Pastoralist know that you are prospecting on their lease & your camping position.
That way you can develop a good relationship for any visits in the future.
I have doing this mainly for safety reasons, mustering & they could have shooters on their property culling vermin animals etc. & also the way things are now
evolving due to some idiots bush bashing damaging property & leaving rubbish by not abiding by the rules political pressure is being put by the
Pastoral & Lands Board of WA to have the State Government change the WA Mining Act to restrict prospectors camping on Pastoral Leases.
I have been down this track myself with one irate pastoralist who didn't want me on his land because previous people had done the wrong thing by him
in not informing of their intentions & although I had informed him of my legal right had to pursue the matter through the DMP to resolve it.
So my advice is always be courteous & let them know your intensions as some of them will probably tell you where some good ground is where to detect.

Cheers

Ted


Last edited by Topcat on Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:43 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Wording)
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  goldtalkleonora on Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:26 am

Tributer wrote:Hi Jigalong. With a miners right you can camp and prospect on vacant/blue ground on a pastoral lease, however you must try to inform the pastoralist you are going to be there and for how long. Some pastoralists can get upset if you don't tell them you will be there and they will inform the DMP pastoralist liaison officer for their district about it and will invariably say you upset mustering activities or such. It is good practice to ring or drop an email "informing them you will be prospecting and maybe describing your group vehicles". It helps protect our hobby    cheers steve

The exact wording from DMP/regulations is:

Pastoralist notifications
Miner’s Right holders intending to prospect on pastoral leases must take all reasonable and practicable steps to:
notify pastoralists where they will be and for how long. This ensures the safety of the prospectors if the pastoralist has planned activities (such as mustering, baiting, vermin culling, etc).
•take all necessary steps to prevent fire, damage to trees, other property or livestock
•cause as little inconvenience as possible to pastoralists and restrict the number of passes or re-passes to a minimum
•comply with reasonable request made by pastoralists
•repair any damage caused by vehicles to tracks and to lease holder improvements, during the passing and repassing.

Hi Tributer,

You have not quoted from the Mining Act mate...that is from some guide to prospecting and it is incorrect..or at the least only part of the story.
I am sorry to pick you up....but you are wrong. There is only a couple of circumstances where you need to attempt to notify the PLH and only a couple of circumstances where prospectors are required to obey fair and reasonable requests....nothing to do with mustering etc. The PLH has just as much an obligation to keep their activities away from mine. HOWEVER...I agree with TOPCAT...if the PLH has a fair attitude then mutual respect and courtesy is the only way to go...and it's only going to cost a phone call to find out. But remember....with a WA Miners Right...if your prospecting LEGALLY....then you have equal rights to be on that ground...neither party owns the ground...that is why it's important to know the rules...plenty of people think they do...and they don't. Once you know the rules it's up to you how far you want to push it....but remember that bullies usually back down...they know they are full of crap and when they front you...if your well informed you will often win the argument....if your doing the right thing then let 'em call the DMP or police...in fact...use my phone mate!!
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Tributer on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:06 pm

Hi goldtalkleonora, I agree with you sentiment about being well informed about your Miners Rights especially if one of the cranky pastoralists or workers has a go at you.

While every publication on miners rights/fossicking and webpages on the DMP site says you are obliged to inform the pastoral lease holder (even if you are prospecting on vacant/pending ground with a miners rights).....the actual legislation says its only if you pass within 400metres of a well or bore or 100 metres of other built features on a pastoral lease on any part of your journey over a pastoral lease to prospect vacant/pending ground with a miners right that the law requires you " before so passing or repassing, take all reasonable and practicable steps to notify the occupier of the Crown land so situated of his intention to do so" Mining Act 1978 (See Sect 20: 5 (a to c). (under the Act a pastoral lease is crown land and the occupier is the PLH.)

So if you prospect with a miners right (on vacant/pending ground)without ever being/travelling closer then 400 metres of a well or bore on your travels over the pastoral lease then you don't need to inform the pastoralist.

However I strongly advocate always informing the pastoral lease holder before prospecting on their lease.....but as GTL says still be aware of your rights if someone tries to bluff you or see you off.
cheers Tributer
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Mr Mars on Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:02 pm

Hi Everyone
Appreciate all the comments, it's been good reading through them.
One of the things i was trying to find out is a map for pastoral lease & crown land which can be loaded onto google maps?
By the way, i have contacted one of the registrars office for details of the pastoralist for two areas. One came back with details of an aboriginal corporation i need to contact and the other is now a live lease which only took 7 weeks to go live. So i guess they aren't always a few months to process.
Don't know how this can be solved really, seems like a bit of 'do your best', throw in a bit of luck and hope it all goes well.
As a rookie learning the ropes it does seem like a haphazard way to go about detecting in WA.
Anyway, i'm slowly getting organized.
Cheers
M.M

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  goldtalkleonora on Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:16 am

G'day Mr Mars, Hard when your learning isn't it!!...keep in mind some experienced people will be taking the general question to the 'nth' degree and so I would suggest you just keep things simple.
1/ have a WA Miners Right for everyone in your party
2/ work out where you are allowed to go detecting
3/choose somewhere where there is some previous mining activity (oldtimers diggings)
4/ring the PLH and let them know your camping out at 'spot x'
5/ get out there and have fun...that's what it's all about.

If you have any problems or your not 100% sure just give me a buzz on 0418 277 861 and I will help out where I can. It's great seeing new chums coming into a great hobby.

cheers

Tony Pilkington
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Mr Mars on Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:19 am

Cool, thanks for the support Tony.

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Topcat on Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:12 am

This is an extract of an article published in the latest APLA newsletter regarding your rights as a prospector holding a WA Miner's Right which
clarifies camping & other issues under the WA Ming Act:

The rights and wrongs of The Miner’s Right
There is a lot of ill-informed comment surrounding The Miner’s Right issued under the 1978 Mining Act of
Western Australia. I hope this will clarify the misconceptions and interpretations.
· The Miner’s right gives the holder the right to camp on Crown Land for the purposes of prospecting or
marking out a mining tenement and take firewood. See attached extract from the WA Mining Act Sect 40D.
· It does not give the right to camp for any other purpose other than actual prospecting or marking out.
The next question is “Well what is Crown Land”. More to the point “What is not Crown Land”? See
attachment 2 – “What is Crown Land”
1. It can clearly be seen from the attached extracts from the Mining Act that if land has been granted as
any one of the several types of mining tenement then that land is no longer available under the term
“Crown Land”. Thus it is excluded from being available under the terms of the Miner’s Right. That is the
currently held interpretation by the DMP and the mining industry as it has been for decades. It also the one
that APLA uses as its guide. However, because of recent confrontations between APLA recreational
members and leaseholders that are also APLA members, that definition is currently under scrutiny by the
State Solicitor’s Office at the request of APLA. For now, we must adhere to the accepted interpretation
pending legal opinion from the DMP. Basically, if it’s a granted Mining Lease, Prospecting Licence,
Exploration Licence, Miscellaneous Licence, General Purpose Lease or Retention Licence you have no rights
under the terms of your Miner’s Right. I.e. No camping, no prospecting.
2. But if you have permission to be prospecting on a mining tenement, then the picture changes entirely.
You now become the subject of whatever conditions and obligations the mining company or tenement
holder places on you as part of the Access Agreement. Those conditions could include no camping so use a
caravan park, no fires, access to only certain areas, keep clear of mine activities, the right to a share of any
gold you find, a statement of expenditure etc,etc. Your Miners Right carries no weight at all at this point.
The tenement holder can put conditions on the agreement and they have that right to do so because it’s
their ground and they pay to lease it off the WA Government. They control it and anything that happens on
that leased ground is their responsibility. So be careful you don’t get on the wrong side of the leaseholder.
You are at their mercy in this regard. Its poor behaviour by people that have led to the withdrawal of any
form of access by many companies and tenement holders. It also leading to an increase in leaseholders, big
& small, no longer being tolerant and content to simply give a warning; they are now seeking prosecutions.
That’s not good for us.
3. Now then, Pastoral Lands, Stations and Pastoral Leaseholder (PLHs). This is where the trouble starts and
these days I can see why. Your Miner’s Right allows you to camp, prospect and take firewood on Crown
Land according to Attachment 2 and read it very carefully!
4. It is the accepted interpretation that a Pastoral Lease is Crown Land and unlike the exclusion given by
being under a granted mining tenement above, the terms of a Pastoral Lease or the PLH cannot disallow
you entry and the rights conferred with your Miner’s Right. i.e. it is and remains Crown Land and as it does
not have a granted mining tenement on it so you can camp, prospect and take firewood as per your
Miner’s Right. This also applies if the ground
Copyright 2016 © Amalgamated and Prospectors and Leaseholders Association. Contact stevhp@hotmail.com psge 8
is still a Pending Tenement Application. The ground is not yet granted so it’s not yet a “protected” mining
tenement.
5. The above part is being studied closely by Pastoral lobby groups and it is a possibility they may challenge
this soon.
6. Put simply, if the ground is a Pastoral Lease with no mining tenement of any type over it then you can go
on it to prospect and camp. If the ground has a granted mining tenement over it then you can only access
that ground for camping and prospecting providing you have written permission from the mining tenement
holder. If you don’t have that permission and you are confronted by the PLH he is within his rights to ask
you to leave the area. If you choose to stay, he can call in the police and you’ll be ordered to move on. If
you don’t move at that point you are then committing an offence by not following the instructions of a
police officer. The police may issue a “move on” order at this point.
7. But wait, it gets even worse! Despite having permission from the mining company or tenement holder,
the PLH can still use tactics to force you off. It goes like this: the PLH may have a deal with the tenement
holder or the PLH has “influence” over the tenement holder under different parts of the Mining Act such as
compensation for mining activities. It’s here that the PLH can approach the tenement holder or company
and demand that the Access Agreement between you and the tenement holder be withdrawn. So, as you
can see there’s more than one way to get you off that ground and this method is becoming increasingly
common.
8. The increasing numbers of recreational prospectors from all over Australia as well as WA has placed
great stress on those other land users such as Pastoral Leaseholders, tenement holder and mining
companies. This ‘gold rush” has also awakened the “green interest” that are pressing for more and more
land to be excised from mining and prospecting. They see these numbers of people as justification the land
be protected by National Parks, reserves and conservation areas. This is what has killed prospecting in
other States of Australia. There are simply too many people out there and there’s little anyone can do to
lessen the impact – at present. But public opinion is turning against the recreational prospectors. We need
to manage it better or the lobbyists will be making representations to government to put a stop to us.
9. What can be done? Well, by using our numbers as APLA members we can help reduce the number of
people out there by informing the poorly behaved that by prospecting illegally they are killing recreational
prospecting. If, after being informed, they choose to continue illegal prospecting then we could help our
own cause by taking action such as photo’s registration numbers, names, statements etc. Please
remember, your hobby, your way of life, your retirement activity will the one that gets stopped by changes
to the law. The “illegals” will just continue to do what they do. You lose, they win.

Cheers

Ted
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  ichi-ban on Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:54 pm

Ted,

What idiot wrote that piece of nonsense about The Miners Right!!

Oh Shite, it was me!!! But something was seemingly lost or translated incorrectly when you cut 'n pasted it. Not to worry you can have "copywright licence to print". All in a good cause.

BTW - about that irate pastoralist that you mentioned. Was that the one where you called in APLA and we contacted the Lands Board and put 'em straight about a few things. I recall speaking to a female there who was all bluff, no real knowledge and when she wouldn't
listen to me I called in the DMP. It all went quiet after that so I assume it was all cleared in your favour?? Advice? Don't always take the view of a bureacrat that knows nothing about Mining and The Act. Seek help from those that know and THEN go into bat!

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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  Topcat on Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:11 pm

Hi Itchi-Ban,

Yes that was me & I pursued the matter on my own as I knew my rights & kept APLA & DMP informed to which the Pastoral Lands Board in writing to me
said they would remain silent on the issue of camping on a pastoral lease & I was quite within my rights under the WA Mining Act.
I believe I sent an email to APLA informing them of the result.
Also I was unaware of the copyright issue with passing on relevant info on the matter so will ask next time.  

Cheers

Ted


Last edited by Topcat on Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wording)
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Re: Pastorl Lease / Pending Tenement

Post  ichi-ban on Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:40 pm

Ted,

I was surprised when I saw that line regarding "copyright" in the article. I dunno where that came from??. It could have been part of the original article and it was somehow put in by our "Datum Post" editor as part of whole publication. But I wrote it and I don't have an issue with copyright at all as long as its getting a good message out there.

Thanks for the quote and I did recall the PLH incident all OK after all. I remember telling the young lady she was wrong. I like doing that,,,,,,,,,,,, Twisted Evil

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