Lease holders or imposters?

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Lease holders or imposters?

Post  Granite on Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:50 pm

LEASES???
About 1.30pm on the afternoon of the 19th of June a 4x4 drove into camp near Murrin-Murrin out from Leonora in Western Australia and two men got out and demanded to know what we were doing there. Their 4x4 was an off white or cream tray top Ute with a khaki canvas canopy and an orange or red flashing light set well back on the cabin roof. I was the only one in camp so I spoke to them. They gave no names or reason as to why they were demanding this information. In fact they offered no identification at all. Their attitude was hostile and overbearing with no attempt at being polite or friendly. When I answered one of their questions with a question of my own, (He asked, if we had written permission to be where we were and I replied, “do you?”) the older person, who’s name I believe is Kerry and I believe may be called Ginger, became very agitated, called me a smart arse arsehole and took our vehicle registration number. It turned out that they had a lease over the hill but we weren’t camped on their lease. But they offered no papers to support their claim and drove off in a huff peed off that they hadn’t been able to scare me into immediately packing up and leaving.

If this character is the one called Ginger I know he has numerous gold leases around the Redcastle, 14 Mile and Murrin goldfields as well as further a field. He is well known to peg leases and then do no work on them for many months sometimes not doing any work at all but keeping everyone else off. Some years ago we caught one of his partners illegally pegging leases at Redcastle at 9pm and this was only one of several he pegged that night. They often peg these leases with the sole intention of flogging them off to an interested mining company and it wouldn’t matter a darn if people detected it as the companies have no interest in alluvial gold.

If I remember right a leaseholder is required to spend a certain amount of money and do a certain amount of work on their lease each month or at least on an annual basis.

Failure to comply with this requirement can lead to their lease being cancelled???

There are many people in the goldfields pegging multiple leases and not working them. This flies in the face of the spirit of the act that was introduced to protect others from the greed of a few who would seek to exclude everyone from good gold producing land.

In the old days people of this ilk would sometimes disappear down a mineshaft if the didn’t mend their ways but these days these parasites of the goldfields seem to operate with impunity with their leases pegged all over the place and warning signs placed about to intimidate the casual detector operator.


While there are many parasites there are also many leaseholders doing the right thing. But if you are approached by a hostile self-proclaimed leaseholder there are several things you can do. You can say, OK I’ll move on, or you can stand up for yourself.

Do not answer any questions until the proper authority and identification is produced. Ask for his/her papers proving the right to ask you questions or order you off. If he has a legal lease ask him if it is the only lease he has. If he says he has more ask their location and check them out. Get a notebook and write down his name, his rego number and a description of his vehicle and lease registration number. Do not be intimidated. And remember they can only approach you if you are actively detecting on their legally granted lease, not a “pending” lease. If they cannot produce their identification and their lease approval, that is: an approved lease as opposed to a “pending” lease they have no right to question you. And detecting is the only thing they can object to. You can walk all over their lease and even camp on it pee on it crap on it but they can only object if you are actually engaged in finding and removing gold from their lease. They don’t own the land, the land belongs to you and me as much as them, they have, on the payment of a small fee, only been granted the right to remove gold and nothing more.

Another scam I have recently seen (25th June 09) was at the 14 mile. Signs tacked to trees threatening legal action were all over the 14-mile and parts of Xmas Gift. These signs are probably not legal and could be someone illegally impersonating a mines department official. They seem to be clumsy photocopies using a department letterhead to add illegal weight to the threat to prosecute anyone found detecting in the vicinity. This done with the sole purpose of scaring people off what are mostly “pending” claims by those that do not work within the spirit of the legislation.

And yet another scam has appeared: Two men at the 6 Mile, Sandstone (June the 9th 09) approached a good friend of mine and demanded he leave as they said he was on a private lease without permission. When my friend showed them his section 20A it came out that they were the ones without permission but he never did get their identities or rego number.

Last year (June 08) a tour group leader at the 14 mile was asked to move his camp off a private lease but sure of his knowledge that he was on a pending lease in the right place and had every right to be there he stuck to his guns and refused to move. The person ordering him to leave is well known on these forums and he wasn’t impressed that his orders were ignored – but he had no right to order anyone off that ground.

Gold does strange things to people. Most can handle it but many become obsessed with what they believe is their right to all the gold and will do anything to stop others finding any. What we have to do is ensure this sort of ridiculous behaviour is stopped and those responsible held accountable.

Those leaseholders that do the right thing and contain themselves to a single claim – and work it according to the mining laws and regulations should be protected by law and feel free to get on with their work without anyone interfering.

But I have decided enough is enough and I will fight those I consider to be operating outside the spirit of the act. Every time I see a current lease pegged and with no work having taken place I will photograph the pegs and every inch of the lease and send the information to the department of mines.

I urge everyone who has similar concerns as I do to do the same. Send photos to the department, flood the department with information on these people and demand that something is done to curtail their operations.

We will only win if we fight back and use the most potent weapon at our disposal – the law of the land and the spirit of the mining act.

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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  Dig24crt on Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:14 pm

You are spot on.Its important to know your rights out there and more important to stand up for them.Perhaps a call to the relevant authorities by anyone who is approached in this manner will help stamp out this lousy behaviour.
Cheers Dig
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  Nightjar on Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:30 pm

Granite,
You have summed it up very well.
The first step anyone must take is to ensure the ground they are on is vacant or you have permission to be there.
Then if any heavy pulls into your camp (and you have the above details) and starts ranting just ask him politely for his identity and proof he has permission to be here, if he can't then tell him to vacate your space!

Peter
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:12 pm

good stuff Granite.

we had a lease at hogans find years ago and was happily camped up there
and these fellas marched up to our camp and demanded if we had permission
to be there, i looked at my husband and smirked and said no do you !!!
would you beleive they said yes they had permission from and said mine and my husbands name,
they then said we had better move along before the owners come up as they were only half an hour behind them.
i went to my car and got out our file with miners rights and the lease papers in it, got a biro and started writting down their number plate on a sheet of paper in the file, one of the fellas said what are you doing and tried to grab the paper from me, thats when my husband stepped in and said by the way mate we are so and so who you rekon that gave you permission, oh yeah prove it he said,
thats when we flashed our lease papers at him and told them to take a hike or else.
also throughout Ora Banda to siberia i have seen no the detecting signs apparently from mines dept tacked to trees, similar to what you have described, i know the gold squad is out that way now and the mines registrar here in Coolgardie has had heaps of call outs over the last 3 weeks.

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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  nero_design on Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:15 am

The same can happen in other states although there's a degree of lawlessness in WA (and even the NT) which has led to vehicles being "pick-axed" a few dozen times by a chap known as "The Crazy German" and numerous new 4x4 Vehicles getting shot up by young prospectors trying to run legitimate visitors off their patches on open ground. Spoke to a guy who recently returned from WA last month who said he was sniped at a couple of times by young thugs detecting in the distance. Two of the bullets whizzed past him before he got the message and fled. He said the police refused to do anything because they claimed there was no way he could identify them at that distance. He also told me the local caravan park was filled with elderly couples and singles, all of whom were returning to their cities to sell their detectors after being stalked and harassed on the diggings. Another chap had his brand new 4 Wheel Drive literally peppered on one side from sniper fire. Another chap I spoke to said he returned to camp after being away for less than an hour to find his solar charger panels smashed to bits and his camp destroyed. I've also met a victim of The Crazy German and his camp and vehicles were pickaxed in his absence. Others have found themselves harassed aggressively by neighbors of the property owners who refused to accept that they had permission to be there.

Yes, there are thugs out there who will come and ask you to leave. If it happens in the other states (and it does), the detectorist is within their own rights to demand proof or evidence that any person asking you to move on has the authority to do so. Police (and even the occasional Ranger) can ask you to move along for any reason they so choose. The problem seems to be overzealous and jealous locals who mistakenly think that they own everything near their property. Most locals see the Gold in their towns as theirs so remember this, even though it's a skewed view, this is how they see things. There's a Greenie in an area that I visited once who just loved to put up false "Private property: Keep Out!" signs all over the place. It was on Crown Land and the locals warned me he was doing this. When I trekked across the hills there I found he'd been bulldozing the darned area trying to unearth nuggets. How he got that bulldozer there I'll never know because it was hard enough to climb to. A chap told me he was intimidated near a major town one night when jerks in utes with spotters on them directed their high beams onto his tent at 9pm. He said they eventually left but only after half an hour or more of very intense light and a sound show to go along with the experience. He was on crown land near a well known bridge on the local Goldfields.

With so many Prospectors arming themselves, I'm actually a little surprised that more people haven't ended up in the newspapers.

Stay Cool!

Marco
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  Beer Beeper on Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:49 am

Tell them to put this in their pipe and smoke it, a person can camp overnight on any other persons-companies mining lease legally without permission as it is not privately owned land.

Although there was a dumb law in WA that a person cannot camp in the bush so many kilometers radius from a Caravan Park.

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Take action

Post  MS on Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:28 am

I do a fair amount of feral animal control on many properties and wildlife parks and have at times had to remotely observe activity to prove what is going on and to assist to form a game plan.
I know this has nothing to do with detecting but, if anyone is worried about what is happening at their camp or vehicle when they are away, purchase a Cuddyback trail camera and these are small and run off batteries for many weeks and trigger via heat and movement and start taking high quality video and still images in colour ,and time and date stamp all images so you can easily see and record what is going on, and have something to take to the police with proof for prosecution.
These unit are fully weather proof and have a memory stick and download to your computer.
At night they switch over to infrared but can be spotted due to the red leds by people but most animals can’t pick this up.
The last unit I bought was around 400 and something like this may put some peoples mind at ease and if something does happen when you are away you can do something about it.
Regards Mark
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  Beer Beeper on Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:43 pm

Ok, a good idea, I found it:
http://www.cuddeback.com/indexb.html

For some reason some people have a mentality when they get a mining lease they think they possess and have title to it and, own the land-property and can run everybody off of that land at will, without the required no trespassing signs if they did own it but they don't own the land anyway in the first place.

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lease holders or imposters

Post  spidertice on Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:34 pm

I was just thinking that the cuddle back camera,s are a good idea,, but only if your cars not stolen, or burnt,, other wise the thieves would be ble to put themselves on you tube lol
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  MS on Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:14 pm

The idea is to set the camera on a tree or something close to the target area, I use a half stake in the ground with the unit attached and cover around with branches ,grass and have a piece of cam net over the top also,
people or animals don't see it but is sees them, thats the idea.
I have mine codded so even if someone finds it they won't be able to recover the video data or use the unit.
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  gollstar on Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:17 am

Cool


Last edited by gollstar on Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  gollstar on Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:39 am

beerbeeper talking of pipes i found a clay tobacco pipe in a mullack heap its intact and you could smoke it,the writing on one side says'aldie and co'on the other side it says 'glasgow' on the bowl it says 'benney## cutty' i found it at waan in vic, dunno if its worth anything but its got history i could just imagine the bloke that lost it in the mullock heap looking for it and cussing that someone stole his pipe hanging out for a fag after a hard days digging has anyone else found one intact and are they worth anything thanks.
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  fadix on Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:35 pm

Granite,
You have accused my husband of hostile and overbearing behaviour towards you at Murrin Murrin at 1.30pm on 19th June, 2009. This is a slanderous accusation made more so by the fact that my husband was not in that area at the time, and the vehicle described was not what my husband drives.
You then make an accusation that my husband's partner was "illegally" pegging. I feel that you may be very ignorant of the Mining Act of WA. Pegging can occur at any time - over pending, granted or vacant land during any 24 hour period. This statement is inaccurate as it is impossible to illegally peg a lease and the statement is highly defamatory.

My husband is viewed by the Taxation Dept as a bone fide prospector, and as such runs his leases and exploration as a business. He researches prospective mineral areas extensively, identifies mineralized areas and then pegs the leases as they become available creating project areas that are of interest to mining companies. These leases may be joint ventured or out right sold to others or companies to enhance their exploration. Your belief that the tenement holder is the ONLY person entitled to question your activity on a granted lease is incorrect. My husband often gives sole rights to others to prospect on his tenements and gives them authority to approach and question suspected illegal "casual detector operators" found within the tenement boundaries. My husband's Joint Venture partners also have this right and authority although their name may not appear on the tenement papers. The written authority that you wrongly believe that should be produced, ,may only exist in a legal document held within the appropriate Company or personal files.

This is his business - not his hobby.

It sounds as though you have been prospecting in and around areas that my husband has tenements within. If you had bothered to look at the papers on the boundary pegs, you would see that my husband's name is not Kerry. His address for contact is on that paperwork and I would like to thank all the hobbyists that do contact us to receive permission to detect on his tenements. He does request certain feedback for this privilege. For you not to know his name, means that you have not bothered to request permission if you have been detecting on his tenements. He considers detecting without permission on his tenements as gold theft and will report individuals to the Kalgoorlie Gold Stealing Squad accordingly. He uses Google Earth Pro to check on activity on his tenements.
To prevent being of accused of gold theft, the hobbyist when determining the areas that they wish to prospect, should ascertain at the Mines Dept the maps and names of tenement holders so as not to detect upon a granted tenement. It is with amusement I note the discussion within the forum mentions that you can camp on any tenement any time without the right of the tenement holder to question your activity. I look at the forum name and see "gold detecting and prospecting forum" not "camping forum." I would love to have 1gm of gold for every time my husband has been told "we are just camping" when he can see evidence of detectors and prospecting gear around the camp.

You are correct that a leaseholder has expenditure commitments to maintain, but your assumption that because you do not see active workings on the lease that the expenditure is not being incurred is incorrect. There are many ways to explore the ground fulfilling the expenditure commitments that are undetectable, such as geophysical ( aero mags, gravity surveys, hydrology surveys etc) and even those areas where work has been carried out, the level of rehabilitation required by the department (capping holes, removing bags, vegetation rehabilitation) is at a very high level and monitored for compliance stringently by the Mines Dept Environmental Branch.

Inciting this forum to the idea of throwing legal tenement holders down a mineshaft for conducting their business in a legal manner and describing this business as parasitical is highly offensive and demonstrates the lack of morals you possess . Concerning the written warning signs that you mention posted around tenements, we are aware that other tenement holders have sought advice and received endorsement by the Mining Registrar of Leonora for their placement. It is meant to intimidate, but only those "casual detector operators" that are illegally stealing gold from tenement holders' tenements. Tenements are expensive to maintain- not the "small fee" mentioned. There are rents required by the Dept of Mines (annual), annual rates to the local shire, expenditure which you have already enlightened the forum which is done not only in the temperate times of the year,(hobby season) but the worst times (Sept to March). My husband considers the hobbyists to be the parasites. No expenditure to the maintenance of the lease is incurred to receive the benefits of the stolen gold. The hobbyists are acting with impunity by believing that they have the right to his gold without any of the regulatory or financial requirements that as a tenement holder has to be performed. Where is the moral decency of asking for permission?

I agree - "gold does strange things to people". Your inaccurate belief that a leaseholder should only have one tenement is ludicrous. It is equivalent to stating that Woolworths would only be allowed to have one supermarket as their place of business. Are you saying that Anglo Gold, BHP, Rio Tinto, Mark Creasey etc should all have no more than one tenement? How ridiculous that sounds.. Are you stating that the latter companies are not "doing the right thing"? The "ridiculous behavior" that you want stopped and people held "accountable" for would ensure that many mining projects would never have been discovered making our nation poorer due to reduced export earnings.
I suppose that burden now will fall to the "casual detector operator" that you have called to arms in this forum.

The concern that "the greed of a few" "seek to exclude everyone from good gold producing land" is a shallow one. Tenements do expire, holders may surrender leases at any time etc making the tenement "vacant" and available for pegging. If you are advising people that pending tenements are open slather, I am led to assume that you do not hold your own granted tenement that you are exploring. Why would that be? Too much cost, personal loss of time, too much reporting ......welcome to the hardship of the real prospector?

I agree that lease holders who work their tenements "according to the mining laws and regulations should be protected by law and feel free to get on with their work without anyone interfering." Leaseholders gain this right by paying the appropriate authorities to hold the lease, paying the appropriate rates to the local shire, paying for expenditure to keep the lease in good standing all to earn an income from these efforts legally.The illegal "casual detector operator" does not pay for this right but still reaps the benefits from the stolen gold. It is equivalent to you taking the dollars out of our wallet, as any gold removed, is gold that we will never have the benefit financially of although we have incurred all the above expenses. Without illegal "casual detector operators" we would not have to expend so much time policing their activities on the leases meaning that my husband could "get on with their work without interference."

Your rallying call of "I urge everyone who has similar concerns as I do to do the same. Send photos to the department, flood the department with information on these people and demand that something is done to curtail their operations" should also be the cry of legal tenement holders. Photos and information recorded should be taken and sent to the Gold Theft Squad with the "demand" to curtail the illegal "casual detector operators" operations.

My husband years ago decided "enough was enough" and now fights those he "considers to be operating outside of the spirit of the act". If you are a "casual detector operator" without permission you are acting "outside of the spirit of the act". If you hold a granted lease, their is no "spirit" of the act - it is a legal framework that must be abided by. If you are found to be within his granted tenement boundaries, you will be questioned as to your business, you and your vehicles will be photographed and your activities will be monitored. If you are found with gold that has the identical DNA signature of the gold recorded from my husband's tenements, prosecution for gold theft will occur.

If you are not a "casual detector operator" you have nothing to fear. If you have permission to be on my husband's tenements, you also have nothing to fear.

"GOLD DOES STRANGE THINGS TO PEOPLE"

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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  MS on Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:45 pm

Sounds like the only problem here is people need to respect each others rights and conduct themselves in a normal and respectful manner regardless what side of the fence they are on.
Everybody has rights here and the land and gold has been here for billions of years before us, and when we are all nothing more than dust let me assure you both will still be here and in the end no one owns or has rights to anything except only temporary access .
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  nero_design on Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:32 am

fadix wrote:If you are found with gold that has the identical DNA signature of the gold recorded from my husband's tenements, prosecution for gold theft will occur.

Gold is a fairly simple Atomic structure. It's also inorganic, thus it has no DNA.

Gold will produce different colors and composition based on the presence of other metals. But it's virtually impossible to determine a gold sample's origins if the dirt has been washed from the surface. The cost of running proper tests to determine if one soil sample is identical to another is blisteringly expensive and often inconclusive.
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re lease holders or imposteras

Post  spidertice on Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:38 am

nero_design wrote:
fadix wrote:If you are found with gold that has the identical DNA signature of the gold recorded from my husband's tenements, prosecution for gold theft will occur.

Gold is a fairly simple Atomic structure. It's also inorganic, thus it has no DNA.

Gold will produce different colors and composition based on the presence of other metals. But it's virtually impossible to determine a gold sample's origins if the dirt has been washed from the surface. The cost of running proper tests to determine if one soil sample is identical to another is blisteringly expensive and often inconclusive.



Gold is a fairly simple Atomic structure. It's also inorganic, thus it has no DNA
Hi marco
A mine from where i used to live prosecuted a person for stealing gold, and the story was that this was based on dna,
( i worked in another mine and workers from this mine told me the story)
It was processed gold as he stole it out of the gold room, and sold so whether or not it was traceable because of the flotation/ leaching process or parts of the gold still had chemicals (eg sippax etc), I dont know ,,
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  delapan on Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:00 am

hi all, i have just come back from a trip to WA, i personally didnt have any of the mentioned problems, but then again i did it the legal way (i know that a lot there didnt, so were always looking over thier shoulders, so it couldnt been too enjoyable for them) we had no problem at all dealing with ALL of the people we approached for permission to detect on thier leases, in fact found them very pleasant and helpful, we were only once asked if we had permission to be where we were, and having obtained permission there was no nastiness, just a chat and a wave goodbye. did we reduce our chances of finding gold ? i dont think so..did we have a relaxed and enjoyable trip...definately.
i think what they are talking about is not so much DNA but the composition of the gold upon assay as each area is totally different because of the percentages and types of impurities in the gold, and as such is like a fingerprint, regards, gary
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  MS on Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:03 am

Gold does have a signature and labs can determine the origin even down to what level stope in a mine it has come from, I wouldn’t think this is DNA but you can tell where it has come from.
That’s the reason the quick melts were unpopular with the authorities because if the gold it heated this signature is destroyed.
Also I would think the surface alluvial gold would be a mix so the signature would vary.
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  nero_design on Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:40 am

Let me put this another way ~ Gold that has come from the same source (host rocks/volcanic eruption or Hydrothermal deposit etc) will sometimes vary slightly but the percentages of inclusions tend to be similar.

DNA is the nucleic acid from living organisms and viruses. Gold is innert. It's also inorganic (not organic) so anyone claiming that they used DNA testing to prosecute for mineral theft is lying - and they'll probably say this to intimidate more simple minded persons and deter theft. I don't mind them wanting to deter thieves but there's no chance in the world that DNA testing would have any result from gold. So you can dismiss the stories of DNA testing. If anyone was watching an old episode of CSI on television where they claimed to be able to trace a gold sample by it's composition on the lab computers, that part of the program was simply science fiction. The show takes many liberties based on existing science yet every episode contains outrageous falsehoods which serve no other purpose than entertainment.

Let's say you found a specimen near a lease but not on it. It might be several kilometers from the lease boundaries yet it may come from the same geological deposit. The sample might be identical to the gold on the lease. Or it could be quite dissimilar. Even if it were the same, there's no evidence of foul play because there's no consistency for an accurate report to rely on. If Gold was consistent in its composition, it would be possible to pin a person for theft.

As for processed gold, if it's been processed into Bullion (which needs to have an internationally recognized Hallmark/s plus a particularly high percentage of Gold (eg 99.999%), then there will be insufficient impurities to trace the gold origins UNLESS the gold has been stamped with a serial number or recognized Hallmark. Ingot molds will also make it easier to incriminate.

But as for native gold from the ground, the best you can do (in the absence of soil or quartz inclusions) would be to assume it came from the same district based on the percentages of other metals. I don't think you'd be able to prosecute based on percentages unless the region was unique. And with much of Western Australian gold being of a lower purity percentage compared to other states, I imagine it would be a simple matter the have any case of prosecution thrown out - unless special circumstances were evident.

Again, the only thing that would incriminate a claim jumper would be for him to be caught red handed on private property with gold on his person that was clearly from the claim. I believe that the soil on the gold would be the only thing that might prove effective in linking the gold to the region... and even then, unless the guy had a complete idiot for a lawyer, it would be extremely hard to prove the case without other evidence (photographic etc). There's a lot of false stories floating on the WA goldfields to deter thieves and DNA based prosecution is just one of them.
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re lease holders or imposters

Post  spidertice on Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:22 am

I checked up on what i was told and the person was jailed on the dna or traces of what was attached to the gold, not the actual gold itself,, my guess is he was stealing it off the tables (used in processing) before it enters the furnace,,
cheers spider
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  Granite on Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:50 pm

cheers

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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  Granite on Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:53 pm

LEASHOLD IMPOSTERS

I find it strange that someone would suggest I am defaming someone when I do not know whom that someone is, a first name doesn’t help. If, as the supposed wife has said, her husband doesn’t drive that kind of vehicle nor was he there at that time then it cannot be her husband – so what is she worried about.

And as I have stated, even though I don’t support the idea of one person owning many leases I believe they have the legal right, if not the moral right to exclude others from their leases. I for one would not knowingly infringe on that persons lease and I know 95% of detector operators agree with me.

What I am really upset by are those persons who make life difficult for detector operators doing the right thing. They are out there and not all of them are leaseholders. I believe it was the same person at Murrin who has approached several groups detecting in the area and ordered them off leases where they had every right to be. This has also happened at Redcastle and the 14mile. In the instances I know those people stood their ground despite threats that the gold police would be coming after them now this person had their rego numbers.

This person is illegally ordering people off ground they have a right to be on. This person is the one who should be prosecuted and fined but unfortunately the casual detector operator seems to have little weight when it comes to legally discouraging these people. What I think may happen is that one day he will run into someone who won’t take his bull and give him a severe talking to in the Italian manner – using his hands.

The intimidating no detecting signs I spoke of around the 14mile etc have not been placed there legally. I spoke to the mines department in Leonora and they were interested to know where I found the one I produced and if I knew who placed them there.

I also believe that leaseholders should be held accountable for identifying their leases. In the old days a claim was pegged and it was obvious to all and sundry that it was pegged and the owner working it. There were no GPS in those days and none were needed.

These days it is much more difficult, especially when most leases have no visible signs of being worked, but occasionally someone does the right thing. A few years ago a gentleman at Boiler flat had a claim where he indicated his boundaries using signs and tomato stakes with pink ribbons. Each ribbon and stake was visible from the next and I’m sure he had few problems with illegal incursions onto his lease. Another at Hawks Nest marked his in a similar fashion and I was one of those who was able to ensure I didn’t detect on a working claim.

With many detector operators in the older age group you will find a high percentage of those people unable to get their heads around a GPS and how to apply it to locating a lease on a tengraph map. It is not good to simply say that if they can’t use a GPS then they shouldn’t be detecting. Not having these skills it is no wonder some of them finish up in the wrong place. Leaseholders can save themselves and these older folk a lot of trouble by clearly marking their lease boundaries and in that way everyone would get on a lot better. Cockies have to put up boundary fences and even householders do so why don’t leaseholders have to clearly mark their boundaries

But I can hear some of you now saying it isn’t up to the leaseholder but up to the detectorists and maybe by law it isn’t, but as I said it would save a lot of problems.

Some time back the greenies blocked off many tracks in the Victorian High Country and said if you can’t walk in you can’t go. That was stupid and many of those tracks have been reopened to allow everyone access to that wonderful country. I would hope that something similar could be worked for our older folk detecting in WA.

I would point out that a miners right is of no value to anyone if there is no place in the WA goldfields for it to be exercised. And when it comes to the economy I would also point out that the thousands of seasonal prospectors who drive 1000’s of klms each year to WA spend many millions of dollars in the state and are vital to the economies of the smaller towns.

Only recently we spent one night in one such town and spent a considerable amount of money. $25 for caravan park fees + $10 for washing, $120 for food. $49.00 for beer and another $67 for fuel plus $28 for takeaway food. We hit town about every 10 days and spend pretty much the same each time. Multiply the above figures by the 30 or 40 detecting couples in the caravan park and all those camped in the bush and you can see these towns do well out of us each year.

And with many detecting folk the gold isn’t everything. If we can find enough to pay for the trip that is great, but it’s being out in the bush what counts, being out there and not being hassled by greedy people who don’t have the right to do so.

So I reiterate, we all want to get along but if some clown who cannot show you any identification or authority comes along and hassles you when you know you are in the right take their rego and write down a description of them and their vehicle. Or better still, if you have a camera take their photo and one of their vehicles. Don’t take any notice of threats to fetch the gold police or to have your gold seized and DNA tested simply ignore them or just tell them you know your rights. And when next in town report the incident to the local police and Mines Department and show them your notes or photos. Let them handle it they probably know the person anyway.

But if you find you are in the wrong place and they are in the right, apologise, pack up your gear and move on. Don’t argue and don’t cause problems because this will only make it worse for everyone.

And as a footnote: I wrote the previous post while still fuming from being treated like a thief and being called nasty names by someone who didn’t have the right. I guess one should wait a few days before putting the events on paper but if I have offended anyone that’s too bad you’ll get over it and so will I.

Granite
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  nero_design on Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:17 pm

spidertice wrote:I checked up on what i was told and the person was jailed on the dna or traces of what was attached to the gold, not the actual gold itself,

Organics appear in soil so that makes sense. Soil samples are regularly used in forensics. Gold even occurs in the human body at extremely low levels (0.0000945 per g/kg of body mass). If only we could harvest it!
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  forester01 on Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:35 pm

And in seawater too, Marco - at some infinitesimal level. I've also read recently that gold in the same minimal levels can be found in the bark of trees. Interesting!

Mike Wellington
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  Dig24crt on Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:54 pm

Hi All,
Is it the system that is at fault in WA.For example say you wanted to detect at Duketon.Being a huge area you would first have to ring the pastural owner to say you would be on the land.Then drive there to find an area that looks promising to detect.Then you would have to drive back to Leonora to check that the area you have found is legal.Then ring the pastural owner and head back.Say thats 800ks all up.99 percent of detectorists want to do the right thing and dont what to be on illegal dirt.If all leases where clearly marked there would be less problems.There is bluff in the WA goldfields and this only adds to the problem."The got to go there to see if its an area you want to be to go back to see if you can be there" makes no sense.Your thoughts
Cheers Dig
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Prospecting in WA

Post  forester01 on Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:33 pm

G'day,

it looks to me as if the best thing, considering the complications involved in venturing out into WA's gold bearing regions and the sheer aggressiveness likely to become involved, is to say 'bugger it' and stay in the Eastern states. However, WA is a huge tract of this continent - and just how far have all these leases and locked up mining territories extended into the 'centre'?

I've had reason to travel into some of the more inhospitable regions of Australia and I know well the logistical problems with both travelling there and existing re water, food, communications, medical aid etc. But it seems to me that the coastal belt (perhaps up to 300 km inland from the coast?) is where the problems vis a vis permission to prospect and permission to camp on these lease areas exist.

I'm also aware that blokes I've known have travelled the long route via the Nullarbor and gone to the fabled land of WA and found zilch worth the fuel and dosh expended in reaching this area. However, having said that, I've also known one or two who've (allegedly) done well out of the venture - but have not gone back again.

I'm prepared to take off my hat to those blokes who're prepared to make the trip to WA to chase gold - and perhaps this is where my commitment to anything should take me. But by the Christ, when I read of the problems involved with latter day hard-cases with firearms (provided always that the accounts are factually correct), I think I'll stick to Victoria and be content to pick up the odd piece now and again.


Mike Wellington
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  Big Ozzie Man on Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:08 pm

I think the biggest issue with WA, from hearing it from the horses mouth a few times, is the amount of prospectors who still don't get permission from either the pastoralists or the lease holders of any certain area.
My wife and I headed over last year for our first ever trip to WA and after reading thru some of the crap that appears in some magazines as well, we decided to still give it a try. Once we got to Kalgoorlie, we went straight to the mines dept and gained all the relevant info we needed and got a short demo on how to properly use Tenegraph.

After that it was back to the Prospector van park to start our homework. First thing we would do was to get out the topo maps and maybe sometimes Gold & ghosts for a reference point, find an area we wanted to search, then get onto Tenegraph and see if it was live or pending.If it was live and we really wanted to detect that area, we'd get a signed document from the lease holder to ok it all.
Next we would get hold of what station it was on and ring the owner and ask if it was ok to camp and also tell them we were detecting, also tell them how long we intended to stay, that we also would take out all our rubbish and also ask if there was a UHF channel that they may monitor, just in case there were some sort of emergency reason to call them.We also would inform them once we had left the area as well. This did happen on one occasion while out at one spot as there were shooters there at 1am, and had no permission to be. (not nice being woken at that time by gunfire!!) We even asked each station owner if they needed anything brought out to them , as on some occasions we would head right past the homesteads. We followed a few simple rules during our whole 10mths over there and never had a problem, all you have to do is ASK.!! Try it sometimes and see, the station owners especially were very surprised when we did as , not many people do. We never had anyone shoot bullets over my head as we stuck to doing the right thing, but may the good lord help anyone that did pop a round over my head. Anyway , just my 2 cents worth, dont let the crap you read in magazines, put you off planning a fun trip to the west.
We managed to pay our fuel bill with gold and have a little left over, we netted 7 ounces, which was sold as we travelled. cheers BOM.


cheers
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  chopppacalamari on Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:42 pm

I actually DO know a man who doesn't take intimidation from anyone. An ex-government employee and has worked in many countries over the years. He is a nice guy trying to just enjoy life now but with a few paranoid and somewhat psycotic scars. If he was confronted by rude intimidating people such as in the example at the start of this post. He would simply make them dissapear. He's indicated that he's done it before and I believe him.

People using intimidation as a tactic should realise that they are going to run into one of these people one day. It could be just a normal person like any one of us who's at the end of their tether. To get that kind of treatment when your having a bad day could invoke a reaction that would be totally unexpected for that person. Then again there's murders in sydney every week. The murderers are out there in society. I would call it Summary Justice to see some of these ass hole bullies dissapear off the face of the earth. Not hard to do out in the bush I would imagine. They might pick on the wrong person one day.

Dicko..
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

Post  nero_design on Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:16 am

You're right about that Dicko,
Plenty of holes out there with people in them... if some of the stories in Gold & Treasure are to be believed. I have little sympathy for anyone mouthing off like that and getting dropped down a shaft for their troubles. And that probably happens a lot more often than people might like to believe. Like you said: wrong person - wrong day. The opal fields have plenty of collapsed shafts that were booby-trapped with dynamite even in recent years - usually triggered by a pressure mat placed under the dirt at the bottom of a ladder.

That's why people used to be far more police back in the days of the US Wild West where everyone carried a gun. If you were rude and caused offense, you might well end up having to back those words up with lead. Hence (in the towns at least), there was a sort of "forced civility".
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Welcome to wa goldfields.

Post  jayvee on Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:46 pm

Well,after reading all the to-ing and fro-ing re words, ident,guns,picks,threats,etc,my wife and myself are still in wa and enjoying detecting,we have had nothing but respect,help and friendship on and in the goldfields,we are diligent but its all good and we are pleased we came 4500 km to be here,we have nothing but good reports for the hobby,BUT THEN AGAIN WE ARE FROM QUEENSLAND, john. lol!
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Re: Lease holders or imposters?

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