VLF vs PI detectors

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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  CJ on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:15 pm

You should get a bit of use out of your goldbug as minelab pi`s or should I say gpx`s spend quite a bit of time in dock Razz

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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Prospecting_Australia on Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:15 pm

Yikes! I feel like a false prophet in “End of Times”. Who would have imagined it could get so nasty. Paul the Blasphemer! Evil or Very Mad Thanks however to JP for a honest and reasonable post. Very Happy Check your messages.

As Churchill once said “If you are going through hell, keep going.” And that's where I feel like I'm heading. If any of you find this a little too much to stomach, then I suggest you turn away right now, because I intend to keep going – I haven't finished blaspheming just yet.

I recently spent some time at an old familiar spot on the Murchison Goldfield well known for its nugget production, and quite popular with visitors and locals alike. Every day while heading out I would ride past a little excavation that looked like it may have been the location of a small leader, dug out by some unknown, lucky chap recently. The hole was about 2 by 2 metres wide and a bit over a metre deep, a small graded area can be seen on the downhill slope in the middle of the photo. The leader was about 300 metres away from the nearest old-timer digging.


This particular day I decided to stop over and give the location a try. I suspected it was specimen-rich at one time or another, and therefore decided to try the GPX 4500 using an 8” coil. It certainly came as a surprise when I never got a beep. I even tried turning over rocks to get closer to the ground in the hope of getting a faint signal. Still nothing!

I never planned on breaking out the Gold Bug 2, but I just couldn't accept defeat. No bloody way can there be nothing! There's always something left behind! And there was. Almost immediately my luck changed. I started picking up specimens at a rate of one every few minutes, the first a big screamer right in the middle of the graded patch - a specimen the PI just plainly couldn't 'see'. Altogether I picked up twelve specimens and a nugget with the Gold Bug 2, ranging from a few tiny specks on quartz to 0.2-0.3 gram pieces. Laughing The nugget, weighing 0.9 grams, was a lucky pickup found further downhill and easily detectable with any PI machine.


A big specimen found using a Gold Bug 2 showing the fine layer just below the surface. The specimen was literally invisible to a GPX 4500, even though it was lying gold-side-up just below the surface.

I thought I'd finished with the spot when a few days later I rode past with a 14” coil on the GPX. The 14” is one of my favourites, punching down that little bit deeper, yet still having good sensitivity on the smaller stuff. I wasn't particularly hopeful but I just needed to be sure. Anyway, it would only take a few minutes to go over the deeper sections. I was just about to call it quits when I thought I heard a faint whisper. I carefully dug down a bit deeper placing all the dirt over the other side on the graded section, for later going over with the Gold Bug 2. Another wave of the coil and it was confirmed to be a 'good' signal. A bit more careful digging and another wave; getting louder! More digging, each time placing the dirt over on to the other side. Eventually, about a foot down, I found a clay-covered specimen of about 2-3 grams – the only specimen I picked up from the location using the GPX 4500.

Back to the car for the Gold Bug 2 to give all that fresh dirt a going over, and adding three more specimens to my collection jar. Laughing

VLFs are dead they say. And I haven't even started with the discriminating detectors!

Another thing I should add at this point is that the ground was hot – too hot for beginners. It takes time to master a VLF – far more time in my opinion than a PI, especially in mineralised ground. Take your time and get to know your VLF detector before trying it out on mineralised ground. It can be doubly hard when you get used to the quiet threshold of a PI machine then switch over to a very noisy VLF.

I should also add that I am not affiliated in any way with Fisher Research Labs, makers of the Fisher Gold Bug 2.

*quickly leaves room heading out into the night towards nearest confessionary*


Last edited by Prospecting_Australia on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:54 am; edited 3 times in total
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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Qld Sandy on Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:51 pm

CJ wrote:You should get a bit of use out of your goldbug as minelab pi`s or should I say gpx`s spend quite a bit of time in dock Razz

What a load o0f garbage!! The 5000 is the best of the Minelab PI's by a huge, even large, margin. Those that think otherwise are either biased or blind!!

By the way I see it, the 5000 is the first PI that can detect the "beer nugget" that is offered on another forum. Laughing That means it can detect a specimen that has only been able to be detected by a VLF previously!!!!!! Laughing Laughing

Your turn!!

I think you need to reconsider as absolutely EVERY one who has a earlier PI that I have conversed with who has the ability to be open to conjection, has agreed that the later offerings are FAR superior to all except the anally retrenched.

Embarassed affraid
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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:48 pm

Paul, I have no doubt that VLF's still have a place and do not disagree with a lot of what you've written. I also agree with JP.
The only thing I disagreed with was your statement GPX detectors are not particularly useful for detecting fine specimen gold, or tiny shallow gold, or reefs and leaders
I firmly believe they are and do. I'm sorry I don't have evidence in the form of photos, you'll just have to take my word for it.
Granted in some instances a VLF will out perform a PI in certain limited conditions.

Also, I have a hole where I've retrieved over 50 small tiny nuggets so far, it was a 3 gram nugget at reasonable depth that first bought this hole to my attention. At the depth it was located, I doubt a VLF detector would have picked it up.
Now I could probably fart about with a VLF and retrieve even smaller nuggets that I know are there, but my time I feel would be better spent bucketing it out and running it through a sluice or even a pan and mercury.

Some of the local Indigenous here use a stick to find gold. They point a long stick towards the ground, sweeping it as we do a coil. Keeping thier eyes trained on the end of the stick they spec nuggets. Some are very successful at it.
Couldn't we say we are mising gold because we are not using proven Indigenous stick technology? Are these sticks picking up gold that PI's and VLF's are missing?


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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  MS on Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:55 am

What about the invisible nuggets that PI detectors can't pick up and only VLF detectors can, I have heard about them even on this forum
Is this a Myth Question
It doesn't make sense to me how this could be possible and the sizes of these nuggets that are spoken about are not small.

On the positive side of VLF detectors, Value for money and dollar for dollar they leave PI detectors in the dust,just as they do in heavy trashy ground.
I have two myself along with a PI and they all have a purpose and place in the kit
Mark
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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Dig24crt on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:18 am

Hi All
Ive only ever had one gripe about Minelab PI detectors,Thats the price.But things have changed now.Good secondhand machines are available at a good price.Grab a gpextreme or a gp3000 and you have a great alround versatile machine.A Gpextreme is one third the price of its adjustable cousins and is a great entry level detector.From what Ive seen the smallest book in the world would be ."Multiple ounce seasons by VLF detector operators"(current not past).
As I mentioned in a previous post one of our past members ran a Whites for six months fulltime in the triangle for NIX.He then started immediately to find gold with a minelab PI.Teach him to trust everything you read in magazines.Why in there right mind would anyone part out good money for a VLF top scimmers when you can now afford the best of all worlds for around 2k that can handle Australian conditions.
As long as ive been a member of gold forums this topic is reoccuring.When something comes out that can compete with Minelab PI everyone will defect,its the nature of gold.Anyone that thinks the current batch of Vlf machines can compare with them buy one.Its a tired argument.
Cheers Dig
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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Jonathan Porter on Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:35 pm

I think we are missing the point here a little bit, VLF detectors do have a place in the arsenal of serious electronic prospectors and they do find gold missed by PIs because Pulse Induction means just that, its a pulse detector, to get rid of the vast majority of ground noise you also have to trade off some signal response to targets that fit in the same place as the trade offs do, basically speaking that means some fast time constant nuggets will be lost due to the receive waitings turning on too late for the target signal to be recognised (in effect blind to some targets).

Would I recommend a good VLF detector such as a Eureka Gold or Gold Bug II as standalone units to go out and find gold with here in Australia? Nope, especially for the vast majority of users, particularly the new users who have come into the game since the inception of the 'Smooth class of timings'. A VLF detector can be a frustrating experience far worse than a GP extreme in Normal timings will ever be, they make a lot of extraneous noise particularly in the noisier gold fields type ground found in places like Victoria and QLD.

To be fair to Paul he has not said a VLF is the be all and end all, in fact he quite openly states he uses his 4500 for the vast majority of his detecting, although reading between the lines I suspect he has had a lack luster experience with Minelab product or perhaps the reliability of said product. I too, often revert to a VLF to compliment my detecting and to be honest in a lot of cases it is just plain fun snagging shallow little bits with a detector that weighs hardly anything compared to all the ancillary gear required for a full on assault in the more mineralised areas.

As an example last year I took Chris Ralph and Steve Herschbach to a gully patch I found the year before (you can view the fun we had on the Minelab web site Link to Gully Hunt blog and Video ), both guys were working the main gully and due to the restricted space I found it impossible to turn on my GPX 5000 because of cross talk, so after I finished filming I grabbed the Gold Bug II and hit the shallowest section of bedrock where I'd scored a number of gram plus pieces with the PI machine, sure enough I was getting tiny prickly little nuggets that the PI was blind to, ending up with 3 odd grams for my troubles with a lot of fun to boot.





I love metal detecting for gold in all its forms, I get a real kick out of the challenge of finding gold with a VLF detector and what it represents from an effort point of view compared to what we take for granted today in current technology, but to be honest I was often surprised by the amounts of gold laying about for the VLF that had been ignored by the PIs! BUT I would not for one second even think about trying to do VLF detecting again full time, as an ancillary tool with a bit of a challenge and fun thrown in they are great fun but if you're serious about finding gold here in Australia then a good PI is by far and away the better option, don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

JP

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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Scrubhen on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:34 pm

Well I am very impressed to finally see another manufacturers detector spoken about on this forum without the narrow-minded rubbishing that has usually occurred in the past from the number who believe that it is Minlab or nothing.

It does truly make for a much better forum, where we can openly discuss the pros and cons of VLF or Pulse Induction detectors of various makes.

Keep it up and many thanks to JP.

Ron
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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  llanbric on Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:29 pm

Dig24crt wrote:Hi All
When something comes out that can compete with Minelab PI everyone will defect,its the nature of gold


The above is so very true.

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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Guest on Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:47 pm

N/T


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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  GREENnuggetCONVERT on Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:59 pm

[ I stand on the fence ] ...They both have a successful and proven reputation......and both will find Gold....
They both have a place in different styles of goldfields........for users young and old......
And if anyone doesn't beleive so,JUST ASK SOMEONE WHO KNOWS.......... Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation :!THATS_GOLD Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation
cheers................Trev....
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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Qld Sandy on Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:52 am

Adrian ss wrote:He who knows, and knows he knows will use every tool at his disposal to locate gold wherever it occures.
He who thinks he knows but knows a lot less than he thinks he knows will use only a ML PI

Well I'm aware that VLF's have a place in your arsenal and I have a 705 that I've never used for gold. I pinged a 0.08 gram bit with the 5000 and a 14 x 9 coil that I had to dig and it was an obvious target. I chased a target with the 5000, Fine Gold and Boost, all over the ground for about 10 minutes as I don't use a scoop. I eventually dug the hole deeper, pushed the dirt and signal into the hole and covered it up making sure there was no signal in it. I couldn't be bothered wasting valuable detecting time chasing bits that take 50 of to make a gram!! It will be a PI for mine.
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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:02 am

N/T


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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  paulf on Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:46 am

It would be good to see how the Coiltek 6" 'sniffer' would go up against a Gold Bug 2 in finding tiny gold, I have used both the 10"x5" Coiltek and the 8" Minelab and have found heaps of bits that have been labelled 'flys**t' by other operators but have not had a chance to use the 6" coil yet.


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Vlf V Pi

Post  mungoman on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:35 pm

To each their own, I reckon..If I went fishing for whiting I'd use light gear - If I went fishing for mulloway I'd use much heavier tackle..If I didn't know what was on, I'd take both kinds.
I can see the sense of using both. Now, in saying that, don't let me get started on the difference between Holden V Ford...
Jon.
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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Bushed-Tracker on Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:15 am

I kept my old Groundhog 'for sentimental reasons' Until a dude came along in 2005 and offered me $700 for it. It did not take me long to get over the sentimentality. It was a great machine in its day and found me plenty. I do carry both - a 4500 and a X-Terra 70 but never used the latter in a goldfield. Maybe time to have a play around Hmmmm Laughing

John
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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  Beery23 on Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:35 pm

That's a lot of great info, some clever guys on here.

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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  DooDar on Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:57 pm

Q03 Q03 Q03 Q03 Q03 Q03 Q03 Q03

After reading 2 full pages of this, I'm glad I a Newdie and I not gunna tell ya what sort of detector I got either.

Those who think it can't be done,
Shouldn't bother the person doing it.

Doesn't matter what ya got, as long as ya find gold and are happy with it, BIG or small.

Hope ya all had fun.
Now lets all shake hands and find some gold.

       Just be happy with what ya got --- DooDar
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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

Post  ARARAT on Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:20 pm

DooDar wrote:After reading 2 full pages of this, I'm glad I a Newdie and I not gunna tell ya what sort of detector I got either.

DooDar wrote:Just bought a new Gold Bug Pro.

Yes we Do Doodar  Laughing Laughing
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I'm gona tell on you

Post  DooDar on Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:12 am

Yeah ------------------ Thanks for that Ararat T02
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don't most VLF machines use PI for Pinpointing?

Post  treasure-whisperer on Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:34 pm

I am a little confused on this subject. I have been hunting beaches and parks for about ten years but some of the basic metal detector technology still is a bit out of my comprehension. I own a Fisher cz-21 and the pinpoint mode acts similar to my Detek PI machine. I also own a Whites xlt and it too has a pinpoint trigger that acts the same way also. With my Detek PI machine the 4 Foot coil has discrimination (ferrous/nonferrous) but the smaller coils do not. So are VLF machine equipped with PI parts and visa versa?
Sorry if the question has already been answered somewhere else here or may sound stupid to some of you. Very Happy
Merry Christmas!

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Re: VLF vs PI detectors

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